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Post by rally2xs on Jan 26, 2016 9:11:16 GMT -5
Here we go: www.nytimes.com/2016/01/26/business/dealbook/a-tidal-wave-of-corporate-migrants-seeking-tax-shelter.htmlJohnson Controls, a big auto parts supplier to the auto industry, is selling itself to an Irish firm (Ireland corporate taxes: 15%) to avoid the astronomical US income taxes. Want to fix this? Pass the Fair Tax. Another information tidbit: American SUV: $40,000 Cost of labor to manufacture the $40,000 American SUV: About $2500. Cost of US Income taxes incurred by manufacturer to manufacture the $40,000 American SUV: About $8800. Cost of CEO's $10,000,000 salary in the $40,000 SUV: $1. We are doing this to ourselves, ladies and gentlemen. We kill the income taxes or we kill ourselves.
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Post by pastafari on Jan 26, 2016 21:25:22 GMT -5
$40,000 retail - $8800 taxes - $2500 labor = $28,700. Where did that go? Why is $28,700 X 10M = $287,000,000,000.00 not enough money?
Let's say you double the labor cost and pay your workers WAY better than the next guy (you know, $0.012 cents per car). $40,000 - $17,600 taxes - $5000 labor = $17,400 X 10M = $176,000,000,000.00. Isn't that enough?
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Post by pastafari on Jan 26, 2016 21:35:15 GMT -5
Oh, only one paltry dollar per car? How much did the guy who installed the tires get per car produced? Let's say he makes a generous $60K a year. The ten million cars produced to earn the $1/car salary for the CEO get him... $60K/10M = 0.006 dollars per car. Not even a penny per car.
Tell me again why the CEO is worth THAT much more than the guy who puts the tires on. Worth more? Sure. Worth that much more? Not in a moral society.
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 26, 2016 22:09:46 GMT -5
$40,000 retail - $8800 taxes - $2500 labor = $28,700. Where did that go? 5000 lbs of material, plus overhead such as "other" taxes like property taxes on their manufacturing plants, heat / light, etc. You think 5000 lbs of material is cheap? At $28.7 K, its a little over $5 / lb for some really sophisticated processing for that material. That's not the part that is not enough. The part that is not enough is the $2500 labor. It should be much more. It _could_ be much more if the damned $8800 wasn't required to be allowed to be stolen by the Feds. If you double your worker's rate, then the price of the SUV goes up $2500 to pay for that, and everyone buys a now cheaper than the American SUV Toyota. Then fewer American SUVs are sold than before, and workers get paid less because their hours get cut because the SUVs aren't selling.
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 26, 2016 22:15:44 GMT -5
Oh, only one paltry dollar per car? How much did the guy who installed the tires get per car produced? Let's say he makes a generous $60K a year. The ten million cars produced to earn the $1/car salary for the CEO get him... $60K/10M = 0.006 dollars per car. Not even a penny per car. Tell me again why the CEO is worth THAT much more than the guy who puts the tires on. Worth more? Sure. Worth that much more? Not in a moral society. Did it ever occur to you that its none of your damned business how much the CEO gets paid? That's between the CEO and the BoD. If they think he's worth $10M, and they pay him $10M, then he's worth $10M. Its like how much a house is worth. its worth whatever someone will pay for it. The fact that the CEO is getting $1/car and the workers are getting $2500 / car should, if you can do math at all, show you that making the CEO work for free would only raise the worker's pay $1 / 30 labor hours per vehicle = about 3 cents an hour. CEO pay has negligible effect on what workers make. Taxes have the biggest effect on what workers make, because the taxes make our American-built vehicles too expensive, so they don't outsell the furriners like they should, and American workers pay doesn't advance like it used to. Get rid of the damned income taxes, and watch labor rates soar.
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Post by bobathon on Jan 26, 2016 22:51:11 GMT -5
In publicly traded companies, the CEOs compensation is reported. Nothing stops an executive board from taking any efficiencies and pocketing them. Just because a company doesn't pay some tax does not mean that cash is going to appear in workers' paychecks. Nothing compels that.
Also, nice apologetics suck job on the CEO, you gullible little sycophant, you!
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 26, 2016 23:02:03 GMT -5
In publicly traded companies, the CEOs compensation is reported. Nothing stops an executive board from taking any efficiencies and pocketing them. Just because a company doesn't pay some tax does not mean that cash is going to appear in workers' paychecks. Nothing compels that. Also, nice apologetics suck job on the CEO, you gullible little sycophant, you! Once again you demonstrate you have no idea how wages and prices get set...
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Post by pastafari on Jan 27, 2016 21:24:02 GMT -5
It could be much more anyway, if not for the greed of the BoD.
What law says that the price has to go up to pay for that? Double the labor AND the taxes AND keep the price the same, the company still makes $176B. Nothing but greed drives that instinct to raise the price of the car.
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Post by pastafari on Jan 27, 2016 21:37:46 GMT -5
Oh, only one paltry dollar per car? How much did the guy who installed the tires get per car produced? Let's say he makes a generous $60K a year. The ten million cars produced to earn the $1/car salary for the CEO get him... $60K/10M = 0.006 dollars per car. Not even a penny per car. Tell me again why the CEO is worth THAT much more than the guy who puts the tires on. Worth more? Sure. Worth that much more? Not in a moral society. Did it ever occur to you that its none of your damned business how much the CEO gets paid? That's between the CEO and the BoD. If they think he's worth $10M, and they pay him $10M, then he's worth $10M. Its like how much a house is worth. its worth whatever someone will pay for it. The fact that the CEO is getting $1/car and the workers are getting $2500 / car should, if you can do math at all, show you that making the CEO work for free would only raise the worker's pay $1 / 30 labor hours per vehicle = about 3 cents an hour. CEO pay has negligible effect on what workers make. Taxes have the biggest effect on what workers make, because the taxes make our American-built vehicles too expensive, so they don't outsell the furriners like they should, and American workers pay doesn't advance like it used to. Get rid of the damned income taxes, and watch labor rates soar. I'm not interested in making him work for free. I'm interested in doubling the wages of the workers and letting him keep his $10M salary. He's happy, the board is still raking in the cash hand over fist, and the guy who does the real work can stop stressing about putting food on the table every two weeks.
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Post by pastafari on Jan 27, 2016 21:43:22 GMT -5
Bullshit. BoD greed makes our American-built vehicles too expensive.
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 27, 2016 22:38:17 GMT -5
Bullshit. BoD greed makes our American-built vehicles too expensive. You are simply wrong. I have numbers that say otherwise and which I've just posted. What numbers do you have, or do you just have your hate for the rich?
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 27, 2016 22:39:39 GMT -5
Did it ever occur to you that its none of your damned business how much the CEO gets paid? That's between the CEO and the BoD. If they think he's worth $10M, and they pay him $10M, then he's worth $10M. Its like how much a house is worth. its worth whatever someone will pay for it. The fact that the CEO is getting $1/car and the workers are getting $2500 / car should, if you can do math at all, show you that making the CEO work for free would only raise the worker's pay $1 / 30 labor hours per vehicle = about 3 cents an hour. CEO pay has negligible effect on what workers make. Taxes have the biggest effect on what workers make, because the taxes make our American-built vehicles too expensive, so they don't outsell the furriners like they should, and American workers pay doesn't advance like it used to. Get rid of the damned income taxes, and watch labor rates soar. I'm not interested in making him work for free. I'm interested in doubling the wages of the workers and letting him keep his $10M salary. He's happy, the board is still raking in the cash hand over fist, and the guy who does the real work can stop stressing about putting food on the table every two weeks. The Fair Tax has a decent chance of doing that. Doubling might be a bit strong, but wages will rise dramatically under the Fair Tax once full employment is reached. The estimate for that is about 2 years.
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Post by pastafari on Jan 28, 2016 21:37:20 GMT -5
Bullshit. BoD greed makes our American-built vehicles too expensive. You are simply wrong. I have numbers that say otherwise and which I've just posted. What numbers do you have, or do you just have your hate for the rich? I USED YOUR NUMBERS!!! I just showed (using your numbers) that the auto manufacturer could VERY easily pay their workers twice as much AND pay twice and as much in taxes and STILL make piles and piles and piles of cash for themselves without raising the cost of the vehicle a single penny.
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 28, 2016 22:19:32 GMT -5
You are simply wrong. I have numbers that say otherwise and which I've just posted. What numbers do you have, or do you just have your hate for the rich? I USED YOUR NUMBERS!!! I just showed (using your numbers) that the auto manufacturer could VERY easily pay their workers twice as much AND pay twice and as much in taxes and STILL make piles and piles and piles of cash for themselves without raising the cost of the vehicle a single penny. Can you possibly be that naive about that pile of money that is not labor and not taxes? Those monies are spent for various things and are pretty damned immutable. If you try to cut into them, you would have to not pay some suppliers of parts or not pay the heat and light bill or not pay stock dividends or not pay something else. That money is "spent", it is not sitting there for you to declare it is simple BoD greed. Good lord, don't you think if they had an ability to take money out of that sum, they would lower the price of the vehicle and thus capture a greater percentage of the market and thereby make more money? No, probably not, 'cuz you may be as clueless as Bob about how prices and wages are set. I think that the left sits in a vast pit of business ignorance, with no idea of what can and cannot really be done, which allows them to concoct these goofy ideas that its the greedy capitalists' fault, when in actuality, things are working as they must work due to the irrefutable laws of money and how it is used.
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Post by pastafari on Jan 28, 2016 23:09:44 GMT -5
I USED YOUR NUMBERS!!! I just showed (using your numbers) that the auto manufacturer could VERY easily pay their workers twice as much AND pay twice and as much in taxes and STILL make piles and piles and piles of cash for themselves without raising the cost of the vehicle a single penny. Can you possibly be that naive about that pile of money that is not labor and not taxes? Those monies are spent for various things and are pretty damned immutable. If you try to cut into them, you would have to not pay some suppliers of parts or not pay the heat and light bill or not pay stock dividends or not pay something else. That money is "spent", it is not sitting there for you to declare it is simple BoD greed. Good lord, don't you think if they had an ability to take money out of that sum, they would lower the price of the vehicle and thus capture a greater percentage of the market and thereby make more money? No, probably not, 'cuz you may be as clueless as Bob about how prices and wages are set. I think that the left sits in a vast pit of business ignorance, with no idea of what can and cannot really be done, which allows them to concoct these goofy ideas that its the greedy capitalists' fault, when in actuality, things are working as they must work due to the irrefutable laws of money and how it is used. Can you possibly be that naive about that pile of money? How is the BoD thinks that the CEO is worth $10M? Is it because he brings them even more in profits? I doubt that it's because he only brings them $10,000,001.00. You know full well that some of that profit could be used to raise the wages of their workers if they wanted to, but they don't, because they want it for themselves. They put up with the taxes and they pay as little in wages as possible so that they can pocket more. Find the numbers, though, prove me wrong. Show me where that other $17,400 per car goes after paying the labor and taxes.
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 29, 2016 5:07:28 GMT -5
Can you possibly be that naive about that pile of money that is not labor and not taxes? Those monies are spent for various things and are pretty damned immutable. If you try to cut into them, you would have to not pay some suppliers of parts or not pay the heat and light bill or not pay stock dividends or not pay something else. That money is "spent", it is not sitting there for you to declare it is simple BoD greed. Good lord, don't you think if they had an ability to take money out of that sum, they would lower the price of the vehicle and thus capture a greater percentage of the market and thereby make more money? No, probably not, 'cuz you may be as clueless as Bob about how prices and wages are set. I think that the left sits in a vast pit of business ignorance, with no idea of what can and cannot really be done, which allows them to concoct these goofy ideas that its the greedy capitalists' fault, when in actuality, things are working as they must work due to the irrefutable laws of money and how it is used. Can you possibly be that naive about that pile of money? How is the BoD thinks that the CEO is worth $10M? Is it because he brings them even more in profits? I doubt that it's because he only brings them $10,000,001.00. You know full well that some of that profit could be used to raise the wages of their workers if they wanted to, but they don't, because they want it for themselves. They put up with the taxes and they pay as little in wages as possible so that they can pocket more. Find the numbers, though, prove me wrong. Show me where that other $17,400 per car goes after paying the labor and taxes. They _can't_ pay more in wages without getting the money from somewhere, most probably by raising the price of the vehicle. You are just nuts to bring up the CEO salary as an issue after I just showed you that it is just $1 / car, you have only envy as a motivation for that, because financially it is insignificant. And of course those CEO salaries work as everything else in business works, by supply and demand, so if they try to skimp on CEO salary and pay him $5M, he is more likely to say "Procter and Gamble just offered me $10M to run their company, so Sayonara, cheapskate, and good luck finding another CEO to run this huge company for $5M." And your CEO walks and you not only have to find another one, and probably pony up $10M to hire him away from some other company that's paying him almost that much, plus you're going to have to work at somewhat of a disadvantage until he learns your particular business and becomes as efficient at it as the last guy. So cheap out on the CEO's salary at your peril. Again, you're so business naive that you think that you think the CEO's salary is some sort of charity, but it isn't, its a necessary thing that ensures maximal prosperity for the company. Yes, the companies always tries to pay workers as little as possible. It is a business, and not a charity. The purpose of a business is to make as much money for its investors as it can, and giving more than is necessary to workers will diminish that money which is paid with dividends. Labor rate goes up, dividends will go down to pay for it, or the price of the product will go up to pay for it. Wages work as everything else in business works, by supply and demand, so with Obama's 94 million people out of the workforce, businesses have no problem at all finding someone to work for peanuts, 'cuz there's lots of people in that 94 million that are actually starving and will work for those peanuts, so wages remain low. Want to fix it? Kill the f'n income taxes, American industry will grow at Biblical rates, and these 94 million people sitting around twiddling their thumbs will be greatly diminished, and finding the next welder for your factory is going to start getting tough, 'cuz all the welders are already employed at other factories. That means, if there are any more left in society, they're people that didn't much think about getting jobs at all - people that are happy sitting home and taking care of the kids, or whatever, and you're going to have to spring with big bucks to lure 'em out of the house. That's how wages go up. Otherwise, you're going to have to take some kid out of high school and get him into a welding apprentice program from the union, and then you get to pay him less until he gets his journeyman card. Then you either pay him union scale or you're in trouble with the union, and beyond that, he's going to take his shiny new card and walk to a different employer and get the union scale with his shiny new card. Bottom line - the $$$ that is not labor and not taxes is not possible to carve out of, carving out of the CEO's salary will only get workers about 3 cents an hour for the workers, but to really raise wages, we must get rid of the income taxes that frees up, if not $8800 from that SUV's tax burden, probably somewhere around half that, as some of the tax is not the company's to recover, it will automatically go to the worker - his individual income taxes that, while they are an expense to the company because they necessarily cost them in increased wages that they must pay, his share of the payroll taxes, which again automatically go to the worker, etc. But $4400 of freed-up tax is _still_ enough to double the worker's salary. Will "double" happen? Maybe - I wouldn't hold my breath, but with the supply and demand of labor working in the laborer's favor, maybe.
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Post by pastafari on Jan 29, 2016 8:36:42 GMT -5
Thank you for proving my point. When the company can get cheaper labor, it pockets the savings. When the company can pay less in taxes, it's going to pocket those savings, too. Like you just said, "Companies ALWAYS try to pay workers as little as possible".
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Post by pastafari on Jan 29, 2016 8:37:46 GMT -5
As if there aren't perfectly capable people out there who would take a $5M salary job.
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Post by pastafari on Jan 29, 2016 8:43:55 GMT -5
That right there also proves my point. It is a philosophy of business based entirely in... say it with me.... greed.
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Post by bobathon on Jan 29, 2016 9:09:23 GMT -5
Yeah, super business genius there thinks Gordon Gekko was the hero.
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 29, 2016 9:11:01 GMT -5
Thank you for proving my point. When the company can get cheaper labor, it pockets the savings. When the company can pay less in taxes, it's going to pocket those savings, too. Like you just said, "Companies ALWAYS try to pay workers as little as possible". Pocket == Pays higher dividends.
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 29, 2016 9:11:38 GMT -5
Yeah, super business genius there thinks Gordon Gekko was the hero. GG was right, and it works that way even in Communist countries.
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 29, 2016 9:13:14 GMT -5
That right there also proves my point. It is a philosophy of business based entirely in... say it with me.... greed. Its how all of humanity works:
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Post by bobathon on Jan 29, 2016 9:26:04 GMT -5
Yeah, super business genius there thinks Gordon Gekko was the hero. GG was right, and it works that way even in Communist countries. Quoted for those who had any doubts about you. E pluribus I got mine bitches.
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Post by bobathon on Jan 29, 2016 9:29:52 GMT -5
That right there also proves my point. It is a philosophy of business based entirely in... say it with me.... greed. Its how all of humanity works: That's a lie. It's how you want humanity to work because you already got yours and you're a sociopath. What did your Lord* say about it? *No, not your Lord Mammon, but Jesus the christ. Maybe you should google "Jesus camel eye needle wealthy heaven", dear ignorant hypocrite.
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Post by bobathon on Jan 29, 2016 12:06:36 GMT -5
Let's note that rally says when given the chance, the BoD should cut corners and reap profit. Elsewhere he'll claim that if that cut corner is taxes, the BoD will just put that loot into employee paychecks.
Nutsy-fig.
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 29, 2016 23:42:52 GMT -5
Let's note that rally says when given the chance, the BoD should cut corners and reap profit. Elsewhere he'll claim that if that cut corner is taxes, the BoD will just put that loot into employee paychecks. Nutsy-fig. No, you just don't have a clue how this works. Its like trying to discuss nuclear physics with a cave man. What happens under prosperity is that full employment causes a labor shortage, the employers have to begin to scramble just to find the help they need (employees) to work in their businesses, and they are FORCED to break out the checkbook and start paying significantly higher wages to hire people away from other business competitors. The only missing thing here is the fact that the lower taxes is what causes the prosperity. Duh... think...
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Post by bobathon on Jan 30, 2016 6:01:06 GMT -5
Let's note that rally says when given the chance, the BoD should cut corners and reap profit. Elsewhere he'll claim that if that cut corner is taxes, the BoD will just put that loot into employee paychecks. Nutsy-fig. No, you just don't have a clue how this works. Its like trying to discuss nuclear physics with a cave man. What happens under prosperity is that full employment causes a labor shortage, the employers have to begin to scramble just to find the help they need (employees) to work in their businesses, and they are FORCED to break out the checkbook and start paying significantly higher wages to hire people away from other business competitors. The only missing thing here is the fact that the lower taxes is what causes the prosperity. Duh... think... 1. Cut taxes 2. ? 3. Profit! You are an idiot, rally. Cut taxes, and every BoD sticks that $ in their pocket. As you say they should. Whence the prosperity, dumbass? BoDs spending like sailors? It's a moron's variation of the debunked trickle down "theory".
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 30, 2016 6:14:59 GMT -5
You are an idiot, rally. Cut taxes, and every BoD sticks that $ in their pocket. Incredible moron. They pay higher dividends on their stock. That is not a "pocket", that is how business works. And, oh, yeah, they might also use it to expand the business by building new factories that, incindentally, employ more people. Yes they should. People buy more stock, the companies expand, dry up all the labor, and the wages skyrocket as the businesses are forced to compete for ever dwindling supplies of employees. Is your cave man name "Oog?"
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Post by bobathon on Jan 30, 2016 8:08:37 GMT -5
Rally, you're the guy who imagines a utopia. Per you, BoDs look out for the bottom line, which you earlier said means paying workers the minimum and taking profit at every opportunity. Now you want that to have an exception, to make your fantasy tax work. Utopia because the BoD really has a heart of gold. They find some capital, and for no performance related reason, they'll give it to workers instead of taking profit or issuing dividends or even making a corporate investment - they'll just pay workers more, because they found some money.
If you had even a smidgen of cognizance, you'd feel dissonant. It's just like your moronic ammosexual hero fantasy. You want it both ways, and can't even see how it fucks your argument over.
Typical conservative Christian, full of so many lies you even lie to yourself. Cheeses swept. smh
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