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Post by bobathon on Jan 8, 2017 6:56:18 GMT -5
Can "save" Carrier and Ford jobs, why can't he save Kmart/Sears and Macy's? Why does he pick winners and losers? Because.
He's not the messiah, he's a VERY naughty boy!
Who knows where I got that quote from? 5 points
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Post by MF on Jan 25, 2017 13:37:08 GMT -5
little boy govt bob, You really are just a typical govt worker,,,,,,,
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Post by minx on Jan 25, 2017 13:41:45 GMT -5
No seriously, why isn't he saving retail jobs? Are those people not worthy?
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Post by bobathon on Jan 25, 2017 13:45:08 GMT -5
Please. You know he's in a masturbation induced coma.
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Post by k9krap on Jan 25, 2017 16:17:42 GMT -5
He must think he's the Howard Stern of FUGland or something, making up stupid pet names for other posters.
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Post by bobathon on Jan 25, 2017 17:34:51 GMT -5
Yeah, how dare he!
That stinking Moskva Fellator. Oops.
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 26, 2017 16:00:03 GMT -5
No seriously, why isn't he saving retail jobs? Are those people not worthy? Why screw around saving a bunch of $10 / hr jobs when you can save a manufacturing job at $25 - $35 an hour? No, retail jobs are not a very high priority. |
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Post by minx on Jan 26, 2017 16:30:55 GMT -5
But why? Don't the people who work retail also deserve to make a living? Maybe they don't have the skills or desire to work in manufacturing. If you're going to create/save jobs, shouldn't it be for everyone?
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Post by k9krap on Jan 26, 2017 16:34:24 GMT -5
Manufacturers need someplace to sell their stuff and there are still a lot of people that don't shop online or at Walmart.
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Post by minx on Jan 26, 2017 17:04:26 GMT -5
Agreed. Those jobs are needed too.
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Post by bobathon on Jan 26, 2017 17:27:40 GMT -5
But why? Don't the people who work retail also deserve to make a living? Maybe they don't have the skills or desire to work in manufacturing. If you're going to create/save jobs, shouldn't it be for everyone? Manufacturing is burgeoning with productivity but not jobs. We set records now with manufacturing. We just don't need people for it. Automation, baybeeee! What happens when there aren't jobs and unemployment goes to 30%? Build more prisons? |
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 26, 2017 22:04:33 GMT -5
But why? Don't the people who work retail also deserve to make a living? Maybe they don't have the skills or desire to work in manufacturing. If you're going to create/save jobs, shouldn't it be for everyone? He's 1 guy, and can save just so many jobs. It is better for the nation to save manufacturing jobs because they lift more people out of poverty and "just getting by" status. Also, saving manufacturing jobs keep them inside the USA, where they can employ Americans. Saving retail jobs does not, because those jobs will just pop up again at Lowes and Walmart instead of Sears and Macys. IOW, retail is all inside the USA, so we're not "losing" those jobs to furriners... |
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 26, 2017 22:06:39 GMT -5
But why? Don't the people who work retail also deserve to make a living? Maybe they don't have the skills or desire to work in manufacturing. If you're going to create/save jobs, shouldn't it be for everyone? Manufacturing is burgeoning with productivity but not jobs. We set records now with manufacturing. We just don't need people for it. Automation, baybeeee! What happens when there aren't jobs and unemployment goes to 30%? Build more prisons? Auto plants in the US are automated up the wazoo, yet hundreds and 1000's of people tromp into and out of them every day. There's no such thing as 100% automation. Yet. When you can show me an automaton that can drive a truck, detect a loose load, stop along the road and get out and secure the load, and / or maybe change a flat on the inside dual, we'll be close to 100% automation. But that particular device I think to be 20 - 30 years away. |
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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Jan 27, 2017 10:42:29 GMT -5
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 27, 2017 10:55:32 GMT -5
Completely ignoring the gist of the article. The article says US manufacturing is strong. We're doing more with less people. That's a good thing. The way to employ all those people who are NOT doing things that machines are doing now is to BUILD MORE FACTORIES and employ those people doing things that the machines are still not doing. The 1st graph is especially misleading since the scale is not from zero to max, but from an arbitrary value chosen to make it seem that employment is near zero. This is the usual lying with statistics that makes me mostly ignore any statistics I come across, unless I can for-sure understand them for what they are. Most, I can't. You practically have to be an expert in the field when people deliberately attempt to use numbers to deceive. Anyway, the bottom line of the article: "Bottom Line: As we celebrate Manufacturing Day on Friday, we can be thankful that America’s manufacturing sector has never produced more output or been more profitable than in recent years. Further, factory worker productivity has never been higher and the affordability of manufactured goods as a share of disposable personal income has never been greater. That’s a lot to be thankful for, so let me express my gratitude and thanks today to US world-class manufacturers and America’s factory workers." As soon as Trump gets rid of our egregious taxes, that are responsible for millions of factory closings and job exportings, we're going to build more automated factories, employ people doing things that the automation isn't doing, and beat the rest of the world to death with our manufacturing prowess. |
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pasta
Juvenile Delinquint
Posts: 411 
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Post by pasta on Jan 29, 2017 9:22:06 GMT -5
Depends on who you ask. Is it good for the 1%? Hell yeah, it is. Is it good for the worker? Nope.
And who is going to buy the things that factory is making, when you don't have people able to consume?
Taxes don't close factories, capitalists do.
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 29, 2017 20:03:18 GMT -5
Depends on who you ask. Is it good for the 1%? Hell yeah, it is. Is it good for the worker? Nope. You’re not putting 2 and 2 together properly. Yes, it _is_ good for the worker because each worker that is working a job producing something is cheaper for the company to afford than if he was doing it by hand. IOW, the effective productivity of each worker goes up. That makes his US-based $35/hr affordable, because he’s producing 50,000 widgets a day over his 8 hours, for $280 per day or 0.56 cents per widget. Meanwhile, his overseas competiton, a worker in China being paid $2 / hr, is only turning out 3000 widgets over his 12 hour slavery-conditions shift, for a cost of $24 per day for 3000 widgets or 0.80 cents per widget. What just happened there is that our automation-assisted worker got paid $35 / hr and produced widgets at a lower cost than the $2/hr worker overseas. Soooo…. That automation in the US factory multiplies the value of the few employees that are left so that they are building products cheaper than the severely underpaid foreign workers. Ergo, automation is a good thing for our workers. First of all, the people are able to consume because we just built 3X as many factories as we had before and employed all the unemployed, so they have good jobs and can therefore consume. Plus, due to the severe reduction in income taxes and expensive regulations, our exports will be more competitive both at home and overseas, so US citizens will chose to buy the cheaper US-produced products, as well as the rest of the world also buying the less expensive US-produced products. So the answer is: US citizens and world citizens are going to buy that factory output. [/quote] Simply wrong. Taxes are what force the capitalists to relocate those factories outside the USA. That shit is about to cease. |
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pasta
Juvenile Delinquint
Posts: 411
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Post by pasta on Jan 29, 2017 20:56:27 GMT -5
Depends on who you ask. Is it good for the 1%? Hell yeah, it is. Is it good for the worker? Nope. You’re not putting 2 and 2 together properly. Yes, it _is_ good for the worker because each worker that is working a job producing something is cheaper for the company to afford than if he was doing it by hand. IOW, the effective productivity of each worker goes up. That makes his US-based $35/hr affordable, because he’s producing 50,000 widgets a day over his 8 hours, for $280 per day or 0.56 cents per widget. Meanwhile, his overseas competiton, a worker in China being paid $2 / hr, is only turning out 3000 widgets over his 12 hour slavery-conditions shift, for a cost of $24 per day for 3000 widgets or 0.80 cents per widget. What just happened there is that our automation-assisted worker got paid $35 / hr and produced widgets at a lower cost than the $2/hr worker overseas. Soooo…. That automation in the US factory multiplies the value of the few employees that are left so that they are building products cheaper than the severely underpaid foreign workers. Ergo, automation is a good thing for our workers. That's my fault for not being more clear with my word choice. I meant the "working class" when I said "worker". But still, the individual worker doesn't give a shit how many widgets his boss gets out him, because he doesn't see any of that additional profit from his labor. If he works 8 hours and 50 widgets or works 8 hours and makes 500, he still gets $35/hour (or whatever). But when he can make 500 widgets an hour and his 9 friends lose their jobs, he's still getting $35/hour, but now he's got 9 unemployed friends he needs to worry about. His boss is happy, of course, because he's saving $315.00 an hour. So yeah, Automation is a good thing for one worker (and his boss), but what about those other 9 workers? I'd love for you to be right, but I don't think that's going to happen. I think they'll pay less in taxes and those funds will go right into their pockets and they'll still outsource to far cheaper labor elsewhere. |
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 29, 2017 21:27:15 GMT -5
You’re not putting 2 and 2 together properly. Yes, it _is_ good for the worker because each worker that is working a job producing something is cheaper for the company to afford than if he was doing it by hand. IOW, the effective productivity of each worker goes up. That makes his US-based $35/hr affordable, because he’s producing 50,000 widgets a day over his 8 hours, for $280 per day or 0.56 cents per widget. Meanwhile, his overseas competiton, a worker in China being paid $2 / hr, is only turning out 3000 widgets over his 12 hour slavery-conditions shift, for a cost of $24 per day for 3000 widgets or 0.80 cents per widget. What just happened there is that our automation-assisted worker got paid $35 / hr and produced widgets at a lower cost than the $2/hr worker overseas. Soooo…. That automation in the US factory multiplies the value of the few employees that are left so that they are building products cheaper than the severely underpaid foreign workers. Ergo, automation is a good thing for our workers. That's my fault for not being more clear with my word choice. I meant the "working class" when I said "worker". But still, the individual worker doesn't give a shit how many widgets his boss gets out him, because he doesn't see any of that additional profit from his labor. If he works 8 hours and 50 widgets or works 8 hours and makes 500, he still gets $35/hour (or whatever). But when he can make 500 widgets an hour and his 9 friends lose their jobs, he's still getting $35/hour, but now he's got 9 unemployed friends he needs to worry about. His boss is happy, of course, because he's saving $315.00 an hour. So yeah, Automation is a good thing for one worker (and his boss), but what about those other 9 workers? The other 9 workers go to work at some new factory that, due to the relief of taxes and regulations, just sprang up to build something else for both domestic and international customers to buy. Business guys don't stick stuff in their pockets to collect lint. They instead invest it to make more money out of it. When reading "invest", think, "build some more factories to make more money." And, if they _did_ sit on that money, they would at least put it in the bank or other savings instrument, that savings instrument would loan it out to people, some of whom would use it to build more factories and multiply their money. Money never sleeps. All we have to do is make the business climate in the USA favorable, and these business people will take over and, in their own self-interest of multiplying their money, build the factories we need to employ everyone. Its just how capitalism works. It works for everyone, because it creates jobs. It WOULD be working for us now, except for the dual stumbling blocks of taxes and regulations. Those 2 facts make it make sense to build factories anywhere but in the USA. As I said before, that shit is about to change. |
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Post by bobathon on Jan 30, 2017 3:29:47 GMT -5
Same shit will happen now as did when Reagan got rates reduced. All the benefit went into management pockets. Worker wages stayed flat.
Find a chart showing US wages and one showing US productivity (both over time). Productivity went way up, wages for workers stayed flat, income for executives increased dramatically.
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 30, 2017 6:33:03 GMT -5
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Post by minx on Jan 30, 2017 10:12:50 GMT -5
Okay, this still does not answer my original question - let's say we're manufacturing the shit outta products - who is going to SELL them?
Why aren't retail jobs worth saving - it is because they are too "lowly" since they don't pay $20/hr?
Looking down on retail workers is the equivalent of college graduates looking down on jobs like plumbers because they are "uneducated"
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Post by bobathon on Jan 30, 2017 10:28:27 GMT -5
And shouldn't retail workers have the wherewithal to buy stuff, too?
Soon enough they will be replaced as well. Ubers, Lufts, and cabbies, too. Long haul truck drivers will probably go early. Automation increases productivity, but sometimes makes people obsolete. Just fling them onto the trash heap out back.
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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Jan 30, 2017 11:15:47 GMT -5
Remember that the next time you go to a store and use their self-checkout. I refuse to use them, period. The only two forms of automation I use are the ATM, which admittedly I'm apparently a part of the problem now, and the gas pumps. I get a pass on that because there isn't one single station I know of with attendants anywhere I've been in 20 years.
This is not unusual, nor is it new. Man invented tools, remember? Now tools have replaced man in many cases, not just manufacturing. I don't think there's any way to stop, let alone slow down, that which we have referred to as progress. That very progress has taken us from the caves to the moon.
The trend of productivity increasing while labor, wages, and employment decreases will continue, probably in perpetuity. That also is not just limited to manufacturing but across a wide spectrum of jobs and industries. Ways will be found to replace every single job possible that is currently held by a human that costs money, makes mistakes, gets sick, gets a better job, gets pregnant, causes discord in the workplace, is slow, requires multiple positions in a company to manage, etc etc etc.
Of course there will almost always be a need for air breathers in certain jobs and industries, like the trades, the service industry, and others.
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 30, 2017 12:02:57 GMT -5
Don't forget that all these retail jobs get their wages driven down by all these illegal aliens who are just fine with working for peanuts. Labor is like anything else, and obeys the law of supply and demand. When the supply of labor is augmented with the numbers of illegal aliens we have, then employers can and do lower wages to the point that they meet resistance, and have trouble finding help. That wage point is lower when you have a bunch of people that are fine with slave-labor wages. So, the next time you get all teary-eyed about the plight of the poor illegal aliens, remember what they are doing to the poor American citizens that are poorer because they're here.
That said, there will be a turnaround in retail as industry ramps up under the corporate income tax cuts that Trump is going to institute. The more people that have more money from more factories will spend it, and will spend it in local stores as well as online. Lots of stuff is still best bought locally - I'm not buying a pair of jeans over the internet because if the manufacturer's idea of sizing is not consistent with mine, I can take 'em back a lot easier if I buy 'em local. Bought 2 pr jeans last night at Walmart. Walmart 'cuz the price is right, they're open on Sunday evening when I got the notion to do this, and their parking lot is easier to access than, say, the mall, and its on the way home. I wouldn't buy a leaf blower or a lawn tractor or (lots of stuff) online, either.
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Post by bobathon on Jan 30, 2017 12:16:09 GMT -5
I don't use self check out. Closest gas attendants I know about are in NJ, where it's mandatory. Strangely, there's no apparent impact on price.
Yep, we are really clever. I wonder what we'll do with the increasing unemployment rate.
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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Jan 30, 2017 12:39:29 GMT -5
Some people would say to educate and train them for what's new and what's next after that. Others say localized, regionalized, co-opted economies and such would be a good place to start. Delivery of goods and services is a relatively safe and expanding market. As is the tech and comms sectors . But again, access to the education and training has to be open to everyone with the desire to pursue those routes, rather than being strictly individual resource based.
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 30, 2017 15:54:09 GMT -5
Some people would say to educate and train them for what's new and what's next after that. Others say localized, regionalized, co-opted economies and such would be a good place to start. Delivery of goods and services is a relatively safe and expanding market. As are tech jobs. But again, access to the education and training has to be open to everyone with the desire to pursue those routes, rather than being strictly resource based. Better get skilled in "things industrial" because those factory jobs are coming back. Also, the Fair Tax does not tax tuition, and so that fact, along with some incidental savings such as lower interest rates at the banks, makes getting an education about 1/3rd cheaper. |
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