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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Sept 12, 2017 10:31:40 GMT -5
abcnews.go.com/US/irma-death-toll-us-climbs-12-part-florida/story?id=49758372Cops not letting people go back to their homes or what's left of them. I think there's probably a Constitutional problem here but in my mind the larger issue is this; the state tells you to evacuate for your own safety, so you do. Then they won't let you back. Well, maybe these people are going to refuse to leave next time because of this. They would have to arrest me on something if I had my mind set on getting past. I imagine that there will be a line of traffic building pretty soon and hope the people decide to take control of the situation instead of being told what they can and can't do.
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Post by No. 1 son on Sept 12, 2017 11:09:53 GMT -5
Pretty close, isn't it? Sometimes I think some of this may be trial runs to test response to it. Could be a real safety problem, or to deter looting, but whatever it further erodes your decision making, good or bad.
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Post by bobathon on Sept 12, 2017 11:47:32 GMT -5
You're just lucky you aren't locked up in the basement of a Texas WalMart.
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Post by No. 1 son on Sept 12, 2017 15:05:17 GMT -5
If you can be told where not to go, what's to prevent you from being told where to go? Like in the basement of a WalMart, for your own good, of course.
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Post by minx on Sept 12, 2017 15:10:47 GMT -5
Actually, this occurred during Katrina as well - there were major areas of the city that were determined to be too dangerous to enter. Most of them were in the 10th ward, which had the worst flooding, and coincidentally enough was where the majority of poor folk lived. Since there were no middle-class or upper-class people wailing about how they lost everything, the media didn't really focus on people who had little to begin with, and now had nothing at all  |
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Post by bobathon on Sept 12, 2017 15:16:37 GMT -5
Anyone not obeying is a looter.
And what makes anyone think they can go wherever they want, anyhow? That was never part of the deal.
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Post by minx on Sept 12, 2017 16:10:35 GMT -5
Just for shits and grins here.
I'm told to evacuate my neighborhood because severe weather is coming through.
You follow instructions and leave.
Sure enough, said storm comes through, leaving heavy damage and flooding.
Authorities say it's not safe to return yet, due to the damage and danger from high water, downed trees, collapsed homes, ect.
Police set up roadblocks and tell you not to go in because it's not safe yet.
You give them the finger and go in anyway, and whaddaya know? They weren't lying about it being dangerous. You get trapped in high water and drown.
What will you family say?
a) "They were such an asshole - not like they weren't told!"
b) "Why weren't they stopped?! Clearly the police/government didn't do their job! I'm calling my lawyer!"
I suspect that you all know the answer that John Q. Public will select, and it ain't gonna be a.
Not saying it doesn't suck big time, but since people don't like the idea of personal responsibility except when it comes to the poor or unfortunate, somebody's gotta be there to stop them.
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Post by k9krap on Sept 12, 2017 16:31:52 GMT -5
There are many dangers, including leaking fuels/chemicals and other toxic things. I'd stay away until it's deemed safe.
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Post by No. 1 son on Sept 12, 2017 16:37:06 GMT -5
Just for shits and grins here. I'm told to evacuate my neighborhood because severe weather is coming through. You follow instructions and leave. Sure enough, said storm comes through, leaving heavy damage and flooding. Authorities say it's not safe to return yet, due to the damage and danger from high water, downed trees, collapsed homes, ect. Police set up roadblocks and tell you not to go in because it's not safe yet. You give them the finger and go in anyway, and whaddaya know? They weren't lying about it being dangerous. You get trapped in high water and drown. What will you family say? a) "They were such an asshole - not like they weren't told!" b) "Why weren't they stopped?! Clearly the police/government didn't do their job! I'm calling my lawyer!" I suspect that you all know the answer that John Q. Public will select, and it ain't gonna be a. Not saying it doesn't suck big time, but since people don't like the idea of personal responsibility except when it comes to the poor or unfortunate, somebody's gotta be there to stop them. Leaving the obligatory "poor people" label off, what you are implying is that the authorities always know what is best (for you and everyone else), the authorities always have your interests in mind and heart, the authorities will protect your interests in your absence, the authorities will always be open to review and accountability, the authorities have the legal authority to make decisions for you, that you have abdicated your right to self determination. Yeah it happened in New Orleans, and it will happen again. Again, trade personal freedom for hoped for security. I see the need for a forceful presence during emergencies, but I fear over reach. |
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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Sept 12, 2017 16:38:33 GMT -5
Pretty sure the right to travel freely was in the deal. There's obviously some places you can't go. I wandered into one such place years ago and was encouraged by heavily armed men in full combat gear to point the front of my truck in the other direction and head that way. But my house and property weren't on the other side of them.
Minxy, it doesn't really matter what people will say or do. It matters only that you have the right to risk fucking up. Now I MIGHT (I say MIGHT because it's still a fine line) only let in people that can prove they have property or family in those areas. The fact that it's been declared a "Disaster Area" changes dynamics a little but at the end of the day, the powers that be are never there to protect you or your property until after the fact in normal situations and I would tell them to literally pound sand at their "mandatory" evac orders. I see where no laws are being enforced here, even though it's pretty obvious there's a new unwritten law called "because I said so".
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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Sept 12, 2017 16:40:02 GMT -5
There are many dangers, including leaking fuels/chemicals and other toxic things. I'd stay away until it's deemed safe. That's a decision you can make on your own. But I'd bet if you had a dog in there you'd change that tune too! |
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Post by bobathon on Sept 12, 2017 16:48:55 GMT -5
There are many dangers, including leaking fuels/chemicals and other toxic things. I'd stay away until it's deemed safe. That's a decision you can make on your own. But I'd bet if you had a dog in there you'd change that tune too! Your survivors pay for the first responder expenses and whatever it takes to fix what you fucked up when you died, right? Like we all say when some dipshit gets stuck in a crevasse, right? And remember, you're just talking about stuff, in the end. I like the never ever trust the authorities approach Comrade Ankurski mentions. You just know they're in your waterlogged home, planting evidence, installing more eavesdropping systems, scarfing up anything of value that avoided destruction. They have all the time in the world to ransack door to door. How else will they know who has the guns? |
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Post by minx on Sept 12, 2017 17:03:30 GMT -5
I'm not saying I agree with barring people from the area after giving them a warning (Hey, there a toxic spill that's starting to grow legs and walk down the street, but have at it!), but I also know that given the society we live in, if people do go back before the area is deemed safe and get injured, many people would lawyer up.
As Bob noted, the people who refuse to evacuate, are usually the first on the line to 911 when things go south. It truly sucks, because there are tons of people who CAN'T get out for various reasons, who will need help.
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Post by k9krap on Sept 12, 2017 17:55:55 GMT -5
There are many dangers, including leaking fuels/chemicals and other toxic things. I'd stay away until it's deemed safe. That's a decision you can make on your own. But I'd bet if you had a dog in there you'd change that tune too! If I wasn't there, my dog wouldn't be. |
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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Sept 12, 2017 20:46:27 GMT -5
Sorry but I'm not down with it. It's like the people who always say shit like "they need to put up a fence on that bridge" every time a person leaps off of one. Or the ones who don't see the stop sign ahead so you have to put up a sign for them that says STOP SIGN AHEAD. Come on man. This is peoples' lives, livelihoods, and homes we're talking about. They should have no restriction of access to that, ever.
And one more thing.... there's already people there in those areas who didn't leave!
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Post by No. 1 son on Sept 13, 2017 7:22:44 GMT -5
A couple of days ago, the wife and I were talking about mandatory vs what I guess you would call recommended evacuation orders (that's what they call them). There was one ordered first at Key West, and I asked her what she thought mandatory meant. She guessed it meant you had to leave. The same as the barrier islands off Va and NC. I wondered what anyone would do if you ignored the order, would they come and put you in custody? I have never heard of this, and I guess the procedure is written somewhere, but don't care to find one. Some people can't physically leave, and some might not wish to leave. That is the very foundation of the US that made this county, the idea of individualism vs state. There is a line between you making good/bad decisions vs the state making them for you, and I realize that varies from person to person. The flip side of this is that if you make a very bad decision you must take responsibility for the outcome, and not hold the state accountable. I think that is where we need to focus.
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Post by bobathon on Sept 13, 2017 7:37:32 GMT -5
Why do you hate America, splitter? E pluribus unum, what does that even mean? Every man for himself?
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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Sept 13, 2017 9:03:42 GMT -5
Unum trollus defecto.
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Post by No. 1 son on Sept 13, 2017 9:12:06 GMT -5
I guess I am confused. When you say people should be free to stay or leave their homes, it's good. When I say the same thing, I'm a troll. What part of personal determination do you have issues with, as long as it doesn't violate someone else's security? |
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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Sept 13, 2017 10:08:04 GMT -5
Yes you are confused. That comment wasn't directed at you.
Pretty sure everything else I've written in this thread indicates you and I are in sympatico on the topic.
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Post by No. 1 son on Sept 13, 2017 10:16:49 GMT -5
Thank you for clarifying that.
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Post by No. 1 son on Sept 13, 2017 10:18:01 GMT -5
Are you still at the school? swmbo and I are in col beach friday on bidness.
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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Sept 13, 2017 10:42:55 GMT -5
I finished there two weeks ago. Since it was literally a couple days before school started, my last few days on the job there was stupid hectic, otherwise I was planning to get in touch with you.
Have a small install to do at their HS but it will probably be Saturday.
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Post by bobathon on Sept 13, 2017 14:36:10 GMT -5
If y'all think this country is about individualism over the collective We The People, why don't I hear you complaining about resource officers in schools, or TSA? Comply or die, right? That's the conditioning some seem to fear, but only when it's about stuff, not lives.
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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Sept 13, 2017 17:04:35 GMT -5
Huh?
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Post by bobathon on Sept 14, 2017 6:37:50 GMT -5
You want us to back up your decision to run into a burning building, while firemen are still trying to save people who are trapped inside. Because you want to check on your stuff.
And since government is involved, they must be Up To No Good.
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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Sept 14, 2017 10:00:10 GMT -5
I think that's an excellent point and one I've already considered.
A burning building puts everyone involved in immediate imminent life threatening danger and only heroes should rush in. Once the fire is out, I believe the property owner should not be prevented from entering their property. How many times have you seen police set up a perimeter around a burnt out building to keep the owner from going in? Let alone shutting down a part of the city and keeping everyone out?
Also. You keep saying "stuff" like people are trying to recover their Grateful Dead albums. Other than their vital signs, that "stuff" might be what they need to get their lives, their livelihoods, and their ability to move forward, moving forward. Whether that be some important papers, a work truck, some tools, clothes, whatever. Not everyone lost everything and evidenced by the relative low loss of life among those who did not evacuate, there's a good chance many of those who return can begin rebuilding immediately if not very soon.
The storm is over, the damage is done. People need to see and to know what they have left so they know where to start. The vast majority have no choice but to get back to work, raising their families, and moving on with life and returning to normalcy as soon as humanly possible. The government should have no authority in delaying that IMHBIO.
PS- I never said the govt was Up To No Good. I just think it's an abuse of your rights to keep you from what is rightfully yours, no matter how material.
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Post by bobathon on Sept 14, 2017 11:42:02 GMT -5
The fire may still be burning. You're saying you know better than the firemen whether that bit of smoke is real fire or not. And there are still other people trapped who need rescuing. That's all why it's a disaster, and not business as usual.
It's someone else who always implies the government is, by default, Up To No Good.
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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Sept 14, 2017 12:03:40 GMT -5
Hopefully the fire isn't at a nursing home.
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Post by bobathon on Sept 14, 2017 12:11:30 GMT -5
Hopefully first responders and infrastructure repair folks are not so distracted by incoming folks that they can't focus on the nursing home. It's not a forever curfew, you know.
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