Well, Since this _IS_ the Economy Forum... see graphic...

[rally2xs]

In 2016, 74 million Americans paid income taxes.    Under the FairTax, 355 million Americans, 10's of millions of illegal aliens and foreign tourists will pay a Federal sales tax.   This works out to a 5-fold increase in the revenue base.  Soooo... all of us good citizens dutifully paying our income taxes would experience a tax decrease, the criminals not paying income taxes and foreign tourists experience a tax increase.   Sounds good to me.

[bobathon]

Undocumented people already pay many taxes, duh.
A 50% VAT isn't going to help us.
Laffer's Curve only helps when income taxes are over 70%, Raygun fixed that issue decades ago.

PS How about those Chinese soybean orders, eh? Nobody could've predicted...

[rally2xs]

Undocumented mostly don't file income tax returns because, although there are about 147 million paychecks, only 74 million pay individual income taxes.   These undocumented are in the 73 million that don't make enough to pay individual income taxes.  As for the other taxes, they'll continue to pay those too.

I've seen news items that the US gov't is taking in MORE money NOW due to the tax cuts raising economic activity.  No, I didn't bookmark the news article, and am out of here to go get the tires changed on the WRX - got some really cheap "Hankook" brand tires - $100 instead of the >$200 that I would have otherwise probably bought.   See if this tire place in King George can do it reasonably.   Then go exercise, then going to the Blue Crabs game tonight in Waldorf.   Anyway, I ain't lookin' up nuthin' again today.   But anyway...  millions more would be paying taxes that don't now...  and each person would pay less... except for the criminals, and the illegals which are just more criminals...   I like sticking it to criminals...

[bobathon]

Being an undocumented immigrant is a civil violation, not a criminal one. That's basics, you xenophobe.

[rally2xs]

May 3, 2018 10:59:07 GMT -5 bobathon said:

Being an undocumented immigrant is a civil violation, not a criminal one. That's basics, you xenophobe.

We should fix that, too.   Anyway, they broke the law to  come and break the law by taking jobs they're not entitled to.   They're just a long series of lawbreaking.   And I'm a xenophobe because I don't like criminals?   I don't think so.   They can come here just fine, I don't care, as long as they do it legally.

[bobathon]

By definition, they are not criminals for being undocumented. By. Definition. Words had meanings prior to prednisent Liarpants McMakeitupasyougo.

You are a xenophobe because you fear the Other. Again, words have meanings. Oops, had.

[rally2xs]

Whatever, they're taking things that are not theirs - jobs, identities to get a SSAN, etc.   They're criminals.  And you're simply wrong about xenophobia.   It doesn't apply to wanting to keep out people that have no right to be here.   Let them come legally and all's well.   Otherwise, I don't want 'em here, and want 'em all sent back.

[bobathon]

Doubled down on the xenophobia, while denying it! Extra Trumpoints for you!


Being undocumented is no more illegal than parking wrong. Nobody has a right to a jerb, anywhere, and what will you do when lettuce becomes $7 a head because only duly patriotic Merkins pick it? Think before you cut off your dick.

PS When is Mexico paying for that wall? He wouldn't lie to *you*, would he?

[rally2xs]

If lettuce were to approach $7 a head, what would happen is what should happen - there would be a picking machine bought or invented, as necessary, and an actual American would be paid appropriately for running it, instead of creating 1000's of poor people who can't take care of themselves for lack of money in order to pick the lettuce.

You can't redefine xenophobia. Xenophobia doesn't mean, "doesn't love lawbreakers / criminals."

The wall thing isn't over yet. Sure, Congress will be funding its construction, but Trump will pry the $$$ out of the damned Mexicans with some kind of tax, such as the oft-mentioned tax on remittances to Mexico, as well as fees for visas, etc. There's 1000's of ways, actually. The damned Mexicans have to be careful, and realize that ANY tax, once instituted, almost never, ever goes away, so if they don't want to be paying 48 times what the actual wall costs until the end of time, they would do well to cough up the $$$ up front.

[bobathon]

Wow, you live a vivid, fantastic life, unimpeded by reality.

[minx]

Actually, I have to say that I do agree with Rally in terms of immigration.

Our laws totally suck and need overhauling, and we have a huge amount of responsibility in creating the conditions that these people are fleeing from.
However, that does not automatically give them (or anyone else) the right to by-pass our immigration system and expect us to welcome them with open arms.

I believe we need to offer a path to citizenship to people who have been here for decades, but before we even start thinking of that, we need to come up with a better immigration process. And building 'The Wall' is not a piece of that process - if people want to sneak in, they will find a way - what we want to do is have a humane way to enter the country legally, and discourage anyone from not using that process.

And Bob, I'm sorry, but you are 100% wrong - if you are 'undocumented' then you are here illegally. No if ands and buts about it. Let's not pretend that these people are something they are not. OTOH, let's also not pretend that if you happen to be Latino that you must be an illegal immigrant. Tons of white Europeans over stay their visas and blend into the background as well.

I think that Larry put it best a while ago though - what exactly are the dimensions of the problem we need to solve, and what exactly is the problem itself?
It's easy to say that anyone here illegally should be granted amnesty, and allowed to become citizens, but how many people are we discussing here? What requirement should they have to fulfill to be granted amnesty? What do we do with the people who don't meet that requirement? How do we prevent new people from coming in after them?

Immigration is a very complex issue, and it's not a black or white thing. And yes, there are many industries where prices are artificially lowered by using illegal workers, farming being one of them. We all need to ask ourselves if it's ethical to have immigrants (legal or illegal) do back-breaking work for pennies on the dollar so we can enjoy cheap strawberries in the middle of winter. It's nice to have fresh produce and cheap beef, but we are paying a huge price for it behind the scenes - maybe if that all stopped and we saw the real cost, we'd make better choices.

[bobathon]

Yes, it's complicated.

My objection here is characterizing "illegals" as criminals. I did not say they were following the rules, I said it's a civil violation, like a parking ticket, which it is. These people are like our forefathers, seeking the American dream. They are not criminals. They make positive contributions to our Way Of Life. And it's offensive to characterize them as terrible people whom we should fear. They are strangers, not criminals.

[rally2xs]

The fact that it is not a felony is a defect in our immigration laws. Having them enter the US illegally is objectionable in the same manner as having rats entering your house. They can carry diseases, they cost you money by consuming your resources without paying for them (drive without insurance, stiff hospitals for medical care including having kids, etc. because they're poor), etc. Crossing the border SHOULD be a felony. Those doing it should go directly to jail for 5 years and THEN get deported. Those already here should be sent back as soon as they're identified. I'd give the "dreamers" a pass because they made no decision to break the law, they were carted across the border like a sack of rocks. But their parents should be going back. We don't need them lowering the wage rates, so despite all the laws that say that THEY can't collect welfare which they find ways to collect anyway, they cause American citizens, who don't care to live with several families under the same roof in order to exist on sub-minimum-wage pay to sit home and then THEY collect the welfare that they would not need if the illegals weren't here, and the wages were commensurate with a much more scarce labor force. And as for $7 lettuce:

"The removal of illegal workers from the seasonal agricultural workforce would increase the summer-fall supermarket prices of fresh fruits and vegetables by about 6 percent in the short run and 3 percent in the intermediate term. During the winter-spring seasons, prices would rise more than 3 percent in the short term and less then 2 percent in the intermediate term. Imports would increase about 1 percent."

From: cis.org/Report/Retail-Produce-Prices-Without-Illegal-Farmworkers

I'll pay 3% - 6% more for picked vegetables in order to rid the country of this particular variety of its vermin. And they are vermin. Vermin are simply creatures that are attempting to exist, and man's relationship to them is as a victim. Vermin are not evil, they are just detrimental. The vermin should be killed whenever possible, the illegals should be sent back. OBTW, it would be blindingly easy to send them all back. There's about 900,000 cops in the country. If each cop identified 3 illegals per year for deportation, that would be 2.7 million illegals deported per year, so since there's about 11 - 25 million of them, they'd be gone in less than 10 years. Then maybe we could get on a quicker and more effective road to prosperity.

[bobathon]

Yeah, well they are all thieving, murderous lowlife scum, who are smarter than real Americans. Like your forefathers were. (sarcasm, duh)

See, look at you ignorantly stereotyping literally tens of thousands of people as all the same. What a judgmental, bigoted prick. Unless maybe you assume all Christian white men in America are aggrieved violent racist murderers in waiting? No, that would be unfair, eh? I didn't think you would - you're a xenophobic bigot, and so you see everyone through a xenophobic bigot's eyes. Ooga-booga, darkies coming to GITCHA!

PS You realize most illegal immigrants arrive *legally*, right? They overstay their *legal* visas, they don't make the arduous desert journey, smuggling cocaine with their cantaloupe-sized calves. And you should know the Taj-Ma-Wall is a BS gimmick to mollify simple-minded xenophobes.

PPS Until we throw employers in the slammer for decades, like Trump for his underpaid Poles, we won't see any less welcoming an attitude. Don't blame the boot-strap-pulling employee, blame the employer that orchestrates and benefits from perpetuating these hiring practices.

[rally2xs]

I blame the vermin.

[bobathon]

A judgmental prick and xenophobic bigot like you should know they are at least as human as you are, likely more so. E pluribus I got mine, bitches.

[minx]

Calling them vermin is way over the line Rally - most of the people coming up from the south are fleeing conditions that are unspeakable in terms of violence and horror. Most people don't leave their homes and their possessions behind and walk thousands of miles on foot (through unknown and dangerous conditions) on a whim you know - they truly feel that it's better to die trying to escape, then stay and be killed by your own government or gangs.

We created the majority of the conditions in Central America (remember the Iran/Contra deal, and propping up peeps like Noriega for decades?), but unfortunately, there's not much we can do to improve things either.

And, as Bob noted, a huge percent of people here illegally are not Hispanic - right now, everyone focuses on our southern border, but tons of people are coming in from Asia and Europe - you don't hear about them because A) they're not Latino, and B) they don't come in as 'dramatically' - they simply get a visa and never return home. You very rarely hear of any of them living in terror of being deported at any second, and you almost never see them being deported. I suspect this is because it's much easier for ICE to target Latino communities, rather than checking visa records. And yes, cherry-picking what group of illegals you are going to go after is racism.

As for making crossing the border a felony, I have to say that your opinion really surprises me. In one sentence, you rant about these people costing the American taxpayer thousands, but in the next you suggest that we arrest them and imprison them (on our dime) for 5 years. How much money will be wasted on that?

And Bob is right - if you want to stop new people from coming in, we really need to change the focus of our enforcement. Rather than going after those here illegally, go after their employers. Make *that* the felony - hire illegals, and your ass will be in jail for a minimum of 5 years. Since I believe in leniency, I would give you a break depending on the number of people employed - so if you employ 20 people and one is illegal, I would be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you didn't know, but anything over 2, and you're outta here. And I would also impose a nice large fine to cover the costs of deporting your illegal employees.
Sure, your business might be shut down by this, putting Americans here legally at risk, but what do you want to bet that once this happens a few times, employees are going to demand that their employers do proper background checks and don't let people fall through the cracks? Right now, getting busted for hiring illegal workers is just the cost of doing business for a lot of employers. We totally need to make it very painful for them to do that.

IMO, once the supply of jobs dries up, the attractiveness of coming here illegally will also lose it's allure. BUT, we still need to reform our immigration policy. There are people here who have abided by the rules, and are still sitting in the queue for citizenship decades later. There is no way that any rational person can defend waiting over 10 years to get a green card. None!

[rally2xs]

May 4, 2018 9:20:58 GMT -5 minx said:

Calling them vermin is way over the line Rally - most of the people coming up from the south are fleeing conditions that are unspeakable in terms of violence and horror. Most people don't leave their homes and their possessions behind and walk thousands of miles on foot (through unknown and dangerous conditions) on a whim you know - they truly feel that it's better to die trying to escape, then stay and be killed by your own government or gangs.

And the rats are simply fleeing the cold weather much of the time, or entering in order to eat your food. Vermin. I think the comparison is appropriate. They could so easily NOT be vermin by simply doing things legally, but noooo... they're "special." No they're not.

We created the majority of the conditions in Central America (remember the Iran/Contra deal, and propping up peeps like Noriega for decades?), but unfortunately, there's not much we can do to improve things either.

We could start handing out hard time to drug users. 5 years in jail for smoking a joint sure would discourage a lot of pot smoking. Or, better yet, we could legalize all the drugs and let the morons burn their brains out. Either way, we need to do SOMETHING.

And, as Bob noted, a huge percent of people here illegally are not Hispanic - right now, everyone focuses on our southern border, but tons of people are coming in from Asia and Europe - you don't hear about them because A) they're not Latino, and B) they don't come in as 'dramatically' - they simply get a visa and never return home. You very rarely hear of any of them living in terror of being deported at any second, and you almost never see them being deported. I suspect this is because it's much easier for ICE to target Latino communities, rather than checking visa records. And yes, cherry-picking what group of illegals you are going to go after is racism.

Not hardly. I don't want them here either. But the wall is necessary to keep the traffic of drugs and human slaves into the country, and guns out of the country, down to a dull roar. Right now it is the level of a 747 at full throttle, noise-wise.

As for making crossing the border a felony, I have to say that your opinion really surprises me. In one sentence, you rant about these people costing the American taxpayer thousands, but in the next you suggest that we arrest them and imprison them (on our dime) for 5 years. How much money will be wasted on that?

Not wasted. The flow of illegals will dwindle to near-nothing if we started doing that. We wouldn't have to imprison very many people at all until they figure out that doing it legally is a much better way.

And Bob is right - if you want to stop new people from coming in, we really need to change the focus of our enforcement. Rather than going after those here illegally, go after their employers.

Its like trying to stop the rain by holding up your hand. The crime is largely un-detectable when you have small operators with a few lawn mowers using brown-skinned people to mow lawns. You want to roll up 3 times a week on their operations just to check to see whether those mower operators are here legally? There's no manpower for that, aid would be a serious violation of the rights of those that are on those mowers legally. Unenforceable. We have to stop them at the source. And it is easy to presume, I think correctly, that those walking across the border are doing it because 1) They're poor, and can't afford a plane ticket - we do NOT need more poor people in the USA, or 2) they are not qualified to get a visa for a plane ticket, because they are already criminals - we do NOT need more criminals in the country either.

Make *that* the felony - hire illegals, and your ass will be in jail for a minimum of 5 years.

Fine, do it. It won't help that much because of the unliklihood of getting caught doing it. You'd have to PROVE that these employers didn't know that the illegals were illegal, and BOTH political parties, sans Trump himself, both betray the American people by refusing to enact measures that would make determining whether someone is legal or not next to impossible. The illegal lies, and there's no way for you to tell.

Since I believe in leniency, I would give you a break depending on the number of people employed - so if you employ 20 people and one is illegal, I would be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you didn't know, but anything over 2, and you're outta here. And I would also impose a nice large fine to cover the costs of deporting your illegal employees.

Sure, your business might be shut down by this, putting Americans here legally at risk, but what do you want to bet that once this happens a few times, employees are going to demand that their employers do proper background checks and don't let people fall through the cracks? Right now, getting busted for hiring illegal workers is just the cost of doing business for a lot of employers. We totally need to make it very painful for them to do that.

Employees, unless they have a nice, strong union, are not in a position to demand anything from the employer.

IMO, once the supply of jobs dries up, the attractiveness of coming here illegally will also lose it's allure. BUT, we still need to reform our immigration policy. There are people here who have abided by the rules, and are still sitting in the queue for citizenship decades later. There is no way that any rational person can defend waiting over 10 years to get a green card. None!

Nope, we don't have "opportunity for all." But there's a couple points here, too. First, if people would start supporting President Trump, there would be far more jobs than he's already created (300,000 manufacturing jobs since Trunp became President) was said in conversation on Fox this morning) and second, if people would get behind the FairTax and pass it, there would be an insane stampede of manufacturers from all over the world to build factories in the newest, bestest manufacturing tax haven on the planet, and we could probably, really open the borders to anyone wanting to work.

[bobathon]

Calling other humans "vermin" is NAZI eliminationist talk. How about we round them up and concentrate them in camps, will that satisfy you? What will be our Final Solution to the Immigrant Problem?

[rally2xs]

May 4, 2018 13:08:55 GMT -5 bobathon said:

Calling other humans "vermin" is NAZI eliminationist talk. How about we round them up and concentrate them in camps, will that satisfy you? What will be our Final Solution to the Immigrant Problem?

Naw, just send 'em home.

Or, like I said, pass the FairTax and make America so prosperous that there would be a job for all Americans and for the people who come here.   We could probably get very close to open borders - you want to come, you're not a criminal / terrrorist, you want to work, then great, we can use the help.   

[bobathon]

The people you fear are not criminals. They aren't pro thieves and conmen and drug dealers and killers, all coming to steal and con and kill and deal in America. You're just a fear filled bigot who hates The Other is all.

And using NAZI talk, for shame, they are people.

[rally2xs]

May 4, 2018 13:47:34 GMT -5 bobathon said:

The people you fear are not criminals. They aren't pro thieves and conmen and drug dealers and killers, all coming to steal and con and kill and deal in America. You're just a fear filled bigot who hates The Other is all.

Some of them are criminals, which is a great reason to keep them ALL out unless they come legally.

And using NAZI talk, for shame, they are people.[/quote]

They can be people in Mexico and Honduras and wherever the hell they came from.