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Post by bobathon on Jan 17, 2019 5:33:16 GMT -5
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 17, 2019 8:27:36 GMT -5
Tell me how you feel about oxy when your back is on fire and it is the only thing that makes that go away.
Have received various opioids for surgeries, didn't much need 'em after the 1st day, and those medical encounters with them still have me mystified as to what the big attraction is. Other than having anything that could be described as pain simply disappear from my whole body, including the stupid little pains that are so ancient you forgot you had them and have been ignoring them for years, I just don't see the attraction. Would need to be seriously suffering from pain untouchable by tylenol for me to get interested in them.
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Post by bobathon on Jan 17, 2019 8:36:12 GMT -5
You truly are a God among men.
Still, there's your drug cartel. Where's WALL for those killers?
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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Jan 17, 2019 9:24:50 GMT -5
Can of worms.
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Post by bobathon on Jan 17, 2019 9:38:50 GMT -5
Can of hypocrisy.
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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Jan 17, 2019 13:26:12 GMT -5
Can of pick your poison.
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 17, 2019 15:42:36 GMT -5
Shit is dangerous. People in pain desperately need it. You want to deprive them? Controlling the distribution is desirable but probably futile. Since, after proper education, people are able to handle all sorts of dangerous things from motor vehicles to dynamite, it would seem that the best approach would be to simply educate people on its use and its dangers. Of course a lot of people are killed by their motor vehicles but that's just a skill thing. NOT taking a damned drug seems a lot simpler.
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Post by minx on Jan 17, 2019 18:00:32 GMT -5
It's hard to explain addiction to someone who has not experienced it, or knows someone who has.
Just because you don't understand it, and have been lucky enough to have been born with a higher pain tolerance or don't have whatever 'ability' that allows a person to become high doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
My father was an alcoholic - he was educated about the dangers of drinking too much alcohol, but the high was far better than any risks. He did sober up near the end of his life. He told me once that he never forgot the taste of his first drink - it was so amazing he said, and made him feel so confident that he never wanted to lose that feeling.
Most addicts don't start out by saying "Hey, it would be so entire cool to have to spend my entire life trying to find this drug". Some people can take a very powerful drug and feel nothing at all - I have a high tolerance for painkillers - what would knock a normal person out has me asking when this shit is supposed to start working. Other people take 1/3 the dose and are on cloud 9.
But I can say that feelings are a very powerful thing. And when you find something that makes you feel incredible and unstoppable, be that alcohol, sex, drugs, education, sports, ect, you will do anything you can to have that feeling stay with you. Sometimes that can be a healthy thing, but many times it's not.
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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Jan 17, 2019 18:36:02 GMT -5
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 18, 2019 0:13:36 GMT -5
It's hard to explain addiction to someone who has not experienced it, or knows someone who has. Just because you don't understand it, and have been lucky enough to have been born with a higher pain tolerance or don't have whatever 'ability' that allows a person to become high doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. My father was an alcoholic - he was educated about the dangers of drinking too much alcohol, but the high was far better than any risks. He did sober up near the end of his life. He told me once that he never forgot the taste of his first drink - it was so amazing he said, and made him feel so confident that he never wanted to lose that feeling. Most addicts don't start out by saying "Hey, it would be so entire cool to have to spend my entire life trying to find this drug". Some people can take a very powerful drug and feel nothing at all - I have a high tolerance for painkillers - what would knock a normal person out has me asking when this shit is supposed to start working. Other people take 1/3 the dose and are on cloud 9. But I can say that feelings are a very powerful thing. And when you find something that makes you feel incredible and unstoppable, be that alcohol, sex, drugs, education, sports, ect, you will do anything you can to have that feeling stay with you. Sometimes that can be a healthy thing, but many times it's not. Yes, at least one of my doctors, one of the orthopedic guys, has told me I have a high threshold of pain, as well as healing about twice as fast as most folks. And I can only think of 3 instances where I drank more alcohol than I should have, didn't enjoy any of them, and became exceedingly sick on one of them, just 4 bottles of Heinekens before a pro rally in Southern Ohio, probably late 70's or early 80's. I guess I'm not very addictive to substances. Guess I'm just lucky. I'm sure the effect exists, I just haven't experienced anything along those lines. Again, just lucky. Hope I don't get in a position where I need these chemicals, because there's probably a point where I would get to need them. Don't want to go there. Don't know how much pain I would put up with to avoid it, tho. |
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Post by minx on Jan 18, 2019 10:52:43 GMT -5
Well, just know that for many people their pain doesn't go away in a day.
And doctors tend to over-prescribe, rather than under-prescribe so a lot of people have extra pills that they don't throw out.
So, when that pain flares up again, and a doctor's visit is expensive, you always have those leftovers.
Until you don't. And the doctor refuses to give you more because you never came back in for those follow-ups because you had those leftovers, so there's no real 'proof' that you've been in chronic pain.
And now you're screwed because you're in even more pain, since you have nothing that can help it.
But your friend tells you that the friend of her friend's son has some leftover pills he'd be willing to sell you, and since you're in excruciating pain you buy some. You can't tell your doctor, because what you did was clearly illegal, and besides that quack shouldn't have told you that you'd need more tests before he prescribed you more pain medication - he should have just given you some!
And that is how the cycle starts for many people.
The problem is that companies like Perdue Pharma marketed drugs like Oxycontin as non-addictive and safe to prescribe long-term. So doctors did so. Lower back pain? Here's a prescription. Still bothering you? Well, use a heating pad and take some Oxy. It was prescribed in much the same way as Advil in the beginning. By the time Perdue had backed off their original statements, it was too late for too many people.
We do a really shitty job in the US of managing many chronic illnesses - doctors get almost no training in how to help people in chronic pain.
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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Jan 18, 2019 12:40:37 GMT -5
I know my opinion about people being responsible for themselves is controversial but I'm sticking to it. Again, oxycontin isn't the problem any more than Jack Daniels or Newports. Why do we have this sense that we can regulate and legislate our way out of saving people from themselves? Has it ever worked in a free society? Especially when it comes to the things that make us feel better let alone good for the sake of feeling good?
I haven't seen a doctor in decades that was liberal with the prescription pad for high potency drugs for pain and I've had migraines that would kill a tiger, broken bones, torn tendons, and a back that makes existing difficult a good bit of the time. It's not that I choose to live in pain, but have been given no options for the most part. My daughter went to the doctors office a while back for her migraines. She passed out while there and they called an ambulance. At the ER they tried giving her Benadryl and some fucking vitamin. I was livid and tore the doctor a new asshole. That's what it took to get them to treat her pain properly. After the two things I had to deamnd, dalaudid and phenergan if I recall correctly, she left the hospital in a few hours pain free and headache free for a couple of weeks. Doctors aren't the problem usually, it's more the regulations they're constrained by, but that guy was a straight up dipshit.
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Post by rally2xs on Jan 18, 2019 13:05:30 GMT -5
Getting back to my situation, I may come from a line of non-addicts. I remember my Dad saying he used to smoke as a teen, but "just stopped." Most people can't do that. I think my family has a gene that says we don't respond normally to addiction situations.
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Post by minx on Jan 18, 2019 15:51:19 GMT -5
John, I do agree that people need to be responsible for their actions, and I also believe that we as a society would rather blame the individual than look at the situations that drive them to the depths of despair.
It's a lot easier to blame an addict for sticking a needle into their arm than to accept that if we had been able to place them with a decent family rather than rotate them around foster homes they might have been productive.
Easier to say that it's your fault for taking too many pain pills rather than asking why we're forcing a 50+ person with health problems to stay on the factory floor.
Easier to say that you should have planned better, rather than asking why your company can't pay you a decent pension so you can retire with a small amount of comfort.
From the dawn of time, it's always been so much easier to blame the victim rather than the system. I don't know that it will ever change.
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Post by k9krap on Jan 18, 2019 22:08:25 GMT -5
Most days, I can tolerate the pain. Today has been really tough. After a teeny bit of sleep, pain in both hips jolted me awake. My right femur is painful to the touch from the hip nearly to my knee. I still cannot get comfortable no matter how I sit, recline or lie. So yes, I would welcome fenanyl, dilaudid, oxy or percs. Even though it will shred my kidneys more than they already are.
I don’t consider myself to be addictive, but I know that I could easily become addicted to opiates. I love that cocoony feeling I get when taking them. I guess it’s a way of escaping the crap.
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Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Jan 19, 2019 13:49:29 GMT -5
John, I do agree that people need to be responsible for their actions, and I also believe that we as a society would rather blame the individual than look at the situations that drive them to the depths of despair. It's a lot easier to blame an addict for sticking a needle into their arm than to accept that if we had been able to place them with a decent family rather than rotate them around foster homes they might have been productive. Easier to say that it's your fault for taking too many pain pills rather than asking why we're forcing a 50+ person with health problems to stay on the factory floor. Easier to say that you should have planned better, rather than asking why your company can't pay you a decent pension so you can retire with a small amount of comfort. From the dawn of time, it's always been so much easier to blame the victim rather than the system. I don't know that it will ever change. Just FYI, be it something I feel is pointedly overlooked, it's not a hard line stance on the subject of addiction in particular. On the other hand saying "it's much easier...." and using the term "victim" are cop-outs in my opinion, no matter which side tries to play those cards. Sans those who literally have no control over their decisions, most of the rest of us know full well that most of our decisions have consequences, including unfortunate and unintended ones. Does the system have any responsibility in all of this? Sure. But not to the point where grown ass people need the government equivalent of a helicopter mom. Enact regulations that make too much sense to ignore, and kick Nanny to the curb. I've got (had) friends and family whose lives were destroyed by substance abuse. I don't blame the cocaine, the meth, the heroin, the pills, the liquor, the cigarettes, or anything or anyone else, but them. Just like if I clutch my chest while typing this, no one should blame Smithfield Meats or Little Debbie. As delicious as their products are, and no matter what they did to make them even more delicious, they didn't force it in my pie hole. All I'm really trying to say is; Let people assume responsibility for themselves first instead of summarily excusing them and instantly turning the focus elsewhere. |
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Post by minx on Jan 20, 2019 11:53:50 GMT -5
You have a point. But it also goes back to treatment and options.
In reality, most treatment programs consist of getting you clean by detoxing you, and then forcing you into some sort of 12-step program (which in turn trains you to say that you have no control over your addiction, and must abstain for the rest of your days). While that may work for some people, there are plenty it doesn't work for. OTOH, it's way easier to ditch someone to AA (or NA, or GA, or OA, or whatever), collect your money and claim you 'cured' them.
My father was an alcoholic who went through three rounds of rehab. First one he was forced into, so none of it stuck since he wasn't willing to admit that he actually had a problem - he never went to AA or the follow-up counseling. Second place was a little better, as it offered group counseling, but the groups weren't 'segregated' (for lack of a better term), so he was in with people who had been completely destroyed by their addictions - hard-core drug addicts, alcoholics who had lost everything they had, including their entire families, ect. He was what's termed a 'functional' alcoholic, so while he was a total drunk, he was capable of holding down a job, and usually stopped drinking right before he passed out. So again, he looked at these others and didn't see himself in them.
Last time, my grandmother shelled out some major coin for a long-term treatment program. This time, they had one on one counseling and he was placed into groups of addicts that were similar to himself and also had some group sessions with people who were further along the path to destruction, so he could fully see the progression of his addiction, and where it would end. That was the one that stuck, but at the same time, he was 60 by then and most of the major damage had been done in terms of family relationships and friendships.
Before he died, I did get to learn a little about his early life and unfortunately he suffered a lot of childhood trauma that left him a very damaged person. I think he spent his entire life trying to live up to unrealistic expectations of what he 'should' be, along with too many people telling him he wasted his potential. When he was sober, he was witty and charming. He was a well-read person and knew just about everything concerning politics and current events. I am grateful that he did finally get sober, and lived long enough afterwards to see his grandchildren, but I'm also sad, because his life could have been so much better. Back then, people didn't talk about things like addiction though so there was no one who stepped forward to help.
I have read a lot of articles about early childhood trauma and it's relationship to adult addiction, violence and mental illness. Research is showing that if you intervene early, you can head a lot of this off at the pass in the future by helping kids before it's too late. Unfortunately, while we're learning more about how these things can develop, we're not progressing as fast on how to treat adults. If we can't get mom sober long enough to help little Timmy, how is intervening in Timmy's life going to help? We can't take every kid away from their parents - there simply aren't enough parents to take these kids on as it is now.
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