The economy in an educational picture

[minx]

I was reading one of those stupid MSN articles on a break.  This one was about which colleges are the most Conservative, and which are the most Liberal. 

But this is what stood out to me - the prices - here are two examples - one from a conservative school and one from a liberal one


> Avg. annual cost of attendance: $37,388

> Typical earnings 10 yrs. after enrollment: $36,700

> Most popular undergrad major: Psychology


> Avg. annual cost of attendance: $61,118

> Typical earnings 10 yrs. after enrollment: $48,600

> Most popular undergrad major: Psychology


I chose each one because they had the same major as the most popular one, and it's a major that requires you to have a minimum of a bachelor's degree.  Keep in mind that in order to really practice in the field of psychology you're going to need a master's degree at a minimum, so the actual cost of your education will be higher.

In both cases, TEN years after graduation, you still won't be making more than one year of your degree cost.  In contrast, when I graduated in 1985 with a bachelor's degree, I was making enough to cover 1 year's worth of tuition in less than 2 years, and my salary today (with breaks because I was able to work PT when my kids were little), is above the cost of my 4 year degree.


It's easy to mock kids and say they shouldn't have decided to be an English major or shit like that, but we NEED teachers, nurses, mental health providers and the like.  These are traditionally low-paying jobs, but in order to even get one, you need to bankrupt yourself.  It's very sad.

[Dave's Not Here Man]

My daughter got her Bachelors in psychology and had started on her Masters. She had a few loans for the initial tuition but the grandparents set up 529s for the grandkids so her loans were for other things like dorm housing and meal plans (IIRC) and not huge 6 figure debts like a lot of them are. Buuuuut, her loans for the Masters tacked on a pretty big chunk. I think she was in to her second semester when she got a job offer that paid close to double to start, what her masters in psychology would have yielded once she had it. At 26, she's creeping up steadily on a 6 figure income and her college degree has absolutely nothing to do with her position at that company. I doubt she would have ever made that kind of salary, even with the masters.

Yes, we still need people in those fields but I don't support the full ride that Warren is campaigning on. Students need to have some skin in the game. That's not to say we can't find a better way (than your example because clearly that is a heeeyuge problem), not just for that one field of study but for many others. For starters, those jobs need to pay at least twice what they do and the parts of the country that say they "can't afford" to pay professionals probably half ass everything else, and are run by antique brylcream pompadours who win their seats with the promise of fighting tax and spend liberals. Investing in people is the only thing that will solve these problems.

[bobathon]

That's another Reagan profiteering initiative. Hooray for Greedy Old Pissants.

I view an educated public as an investment in the nation. So lots of schooling for free. And there's some really toxic shit with college's "amateur" sports BS.

[Dave's Not Here Man]

Educated in what? Useless degrees? Bachelor's in binge drinking and unprotected sex? Partially completed courses? Dropped or failed out of school to apply for even more gov assistance?

I agree to free community college and career training schools. That's about the extent of that investment. You have to give something to get something most of the time. I'm ok with The idea of partial loan forgiveness in some cases, like when a student attains their degree and gets a job in a related field, but the employer or other organizations that represents said industries need to contribute heavily toward the loan amounts, basically a post scholarship arrangement, along with competitive wages and benefits.

And ffs bring back on the job training so we don't even have to have this discussion!

[Dave's Not Here Man]

This is what we get with the risk of failure www.cappex.com/articles/blog/government-publishes-graduation-rate-data

Imagine what it would be like without.

[minx]

I am not in favor of free college or trade school myself. As John noted, you need to have some skin in the game by then.

I would be in favor of two things.

1) Some sort of grant program for community college or 2 years of trade school - you could go for a free or reduced rate, but if you failed to maintain a certain GPA or professional standard (for trade school), you'd have to pay the grant back.
I would set this up so that the school ponied up the money first, and got paid back if you successfully completed the program - that way, the school also had some skin in the game.
And I'd give an incentive to the school based on how many graduates they placed in decent jobs (one that paid enough for a person to share an apartment or rent a room and provided benefits) so they would also have incentive to do some real career counseling. I wouldn't penalize them if someone graduated and failed to get a job though.
And if the trade was one that required you to be an apprentice rather than attending a school, I would support a grant to help your employer cover the cost of training you.

2) Another program that would apply to professions that require you to have more than 2 years of additional schooling. This would work like ROTC - you get a full ride, but you have to agree to go where the government sends you for xx amount of years in return. However, the government would also pay to set you up with the tools of the trade - so if you were a social worker, you wouldn't have to set up your own office - the government would bear that cost so that when (or if) you moved on, the next person wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel.

Of course, either or both of these options require money and a commitment from the government to stick with this for at least a decade to see if it makes a difference. And the American people have the attention span of a squirrel, so if results aren't produced in the first year, they'll all be decrying the waste.

[bobathon]

Yep, capitalism is clearly THE god-sent salvation. If it doesn't cost cash money, it has NO value whatsoever, to anyone. That's why the richest people are the ones who belong in the best schools. They no doubt are the greater people in the greater community, and will provide the greater collective benefit.




ETA, higher education didn't use to be the monetizing, profiteering scam it has become. Gotta pay those sports coaches crazy huge salaries, that's important. Money money money, that's what's important. Profit. Churn 'em and burn 'em, who cares if they learn as long as they pay. The solution is a lot deeper than making it free eg DeVos allows certification of schools with no faculty, facility, etc, because ka-ching.

[Dave's Not Here Man]

Well that was enlightening. Going for the hard sell for communism or was it just