|
|
Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Jul 6, 2020 8:26:12 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by bobathon on Jul 6, 2020 12:03:39 GMT -5
Thank you for noting the problem of guns in this country.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Jul 6, 2020 12:17:50 GMT -5
Guns are the WAY not the REASON. Take away the reason and the gun problem will solve itself. Not the other way around, not even close.
But.
Thank you for the deflection.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Jul 6, 2020 12:54:03 GMT -5
By the way, Father's Day weekend was worse. 🤔
|
|
|
|
Post by k9krap on Jul 6, 2020 16:29:58 GMT -5
An 11-year old boy was killed in DC, too.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobathon on Jul 7, 2020 4:18:37 GMT -5
Maybe you're right John, maybe we don't have a gun problem. Maybe we have an "Americans are stupid, emotional, immature children" problem.
PS American exceptionalism means there's always an excuse.
|
|
|
|
Post by minx on Jul 7, 2020 9:00:43 GMT -5
It's not an either-or thing you know. The violence in our country is out of control. And in terms of murder, white on white crime is just as bad (in terms of numbers) as black-on-black crime. We (meaning society in general) always focus on black-on-black crime and cry "These people need to police themselves!', yet there is never a similar cry about white-on-white crimes. That in and of itself is racist (blacks are more violent than whites - look at all those shootings in Detroit/Chicago/NYC/DC, whatever). Unfortunately, no one seems to care about the people who are directly affected by the violence except to use them as a prop for whatever political viewpoint they're advocating. It's a sin that so many kids in poor areas of big cities don't care about what they're going to be when they grow up once they reach puberty - they only hope to survive to adulthood. And it's a sin that so many kids in poor rural areas only know a cycle of drug or alcohol addiction. So much promise and potential simply trashed because no one really cares about it. Yes, it does start with more policing, but at this point those communities have zero trust in the police or the judicial system. Why say you saw something when there isn't even a guarantee that the police will actually listen to you, and it's definitely going to put you and yours into the crosshairs? Would you report that you saw your neighbor beating his wife if nothing was going to be done to start it, and you were going to be the next to get a beatdown from him? Making any dent in this is going to take a huge, huge investment, both in personnel and infrastructure. And it has to be a long-term investment, not a temporary 'ramping up' of a police presence on a block or two. Community centers, programs, parks, decent schools, doctors and hospitals, and other infrastructure needs to be built, and along with that needs to be a robust police presence so that people feel safe enough to go out and take advantage of them. And the court system needs to also ramp up so that people feel they'll be protected if they say they witnessed something. But at the same time, the same shit is needed in more rural areas - programs, health care access, decent schools, ect. Much easier to say these people brought it on themselves and don't deserve our help.  |
|
|
|
Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Jul 7, 2020 9:40:57 GMT -5
For expediency: Hypocrisy is the commonality. Just as the evangelicals are all about the life of the unborn but vacate their concern immediately upon birth, BLM which stands for Black Lives Matter deserves the same asterisk. Do you ever wonder what would happen if they organized marches in these neighborhoods in Chicago (one example but a very good one)? If they sent a message to the communities that they will put the same skin in the game by organizing, marching, protesting night after night, week after week, city upon city, whether it's white cops killing young black men or young black men killing young black men, or young black men killing black men, women, and innocent children, then I'd wear their goddamned shirt too.
Minx, please cite where white on white violent crime is greater than or equal to, in any concentrated area of the country, what we're seeing in Chicago and Atlanta.
Also, I disagree that it starts with policing. It starts with families and parenting, and taking the responsibility to raise children to be just a little stronger than the negative influences they'll encounter in their lives. I'm sure at least one person here thinks I'm talking about just blacks, but that is not the case, nor is it a privilege that only one segment of society enjoys. I have certainly been around people of all races that have both passed and failed, sometimes in spite of, how they were raised.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Jul 7, 2020 10:26:43 GMT -5
Maybe you're right John, maybe we don't have a gun problem. Maybe we have an "Americans are stupid, emotional, immature children" problem. PS American exceptionalism means there's always an excuse. Show me you plan Mr. America. It all started with rocks and it has, and never will stop until everyone is dead. Violence is instinctive, tools are tools. |
|
|
|
Post by bobathon on Jul 7, 2020 11:02:59 GMT -5
And somehow our country stands above others.
It's too late for any plans. Ever since Hillary's Secret Lesbian Pantsuit Cabal installed Herr Drumpf as Fuhrer, this has been our destiny.
I didn't say I had a plan. I'm saying we aren't mature enough to safely allow ready access to deadly machinery. Did I not read those two brothers were murdered over road rage? Real mature.
|
|
|
|
Post by minx on Jul 7, 2020 12:18:01 GMT -5
It does start with family, and a HUGE part of that is removing penalties for having two parents living under the same roof.
Forget when it changed (back in the 70s perhaps), but in order to qualify for public housing, welfare or food assistance, you had to show that you didn't have a spouse.
Great way to encourage families (of all races and colors).
So for a quick start - remove the impediments that say you can't be married and still qualify for assistance.
And raise the damn income limits and phase out requirements, so people don't have to be beyond flat on their back broke to qualify and aren't booted off the moment they find a job that pays minimum wage and gives you more than 20 hours a week. So that people who are poor might have at least a glimmer of hope and perhaps a small sense of dignity.
I'll try to look up the figures for murders later today John.
I do think a big difference in them was that white on white violence tended to be more 'personal' -people killing their spouses and kids type of stuff, but I don't remember.
But it did say that proportionate to their population the difference between them was statistically insignificant.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Jul 7, 2020 12:21:38 GMT -5
That's what is being said in the papers, which never get it wrong. And just look at the guy in the mugshot. And the guys that were killed were no angels. Need I proceed or do we also need to drag Smith and Wesson, Dick's Sporting Goods, and Robert E Lee into it?
Anyway, I'm done with sarcasm. Until we address the reason people kill each other at least in some material way compared to how they do it, I don't believe we'll ever be able to have any progress on the issue and probably not on the conversation it seems. It's not a defeatist position, it's just the cold reality of what I see.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobathon on Jul 7, 2020 12:47:22 GMT -5
Our nation cannot have a mature discussion. We can't even get past the War To Preserve Human Chattel Slavery, and that was 160 years ago.
People crime in the group they are part of. It's only ever brought up as black on black crime to distract from legitimate protests against the government's abuses. Most white victims were victimized by whites, you never hear concern about white on white crime. Because it's about shut up and stop complaining about your repression. It goes hand in hand with the "you're protesting wrong" bullshit. Kneeling? Wrong. Speaking in public? Wrong. Protesting in the street? Wrong. And yet loud violent gangs of armed white dipshits can go into a statehouse and whine about fucking masks. That form of protest is ok, and doesn't get any "tut-tut, let's be civil now, there are white people criming on white people."
We are not ready for mature conversation.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Jul 7, 2020 13:11:16 GMT -5
We can't have any conversation because nobody is willing to listen to opposing or even alternative views. And, everyone seems to have opinions but no constructive ideas. Everybody wants to put blame everywhere except where it belongs.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Jul 7, 2020 14:10:58 GMT -5
I wonder if what you say here has had unintended consequences vie sa vie the erosion of the "traditional family unit". Some people may call it something else other than erosion, but no one can say it's "enhancement". I've come into contact with way too many single young women that have more than one child by more than one male sperm donor, and I shit you not that almost every one of them are receiving little or no help from any of them. Annnnnd they keep on accepting donations while the males are donating all over town.
Pros and cons to that one. I don't know of anything saying you can't qualify for assistance if you're married. Obviously some of what the intent of that would be to say that I don't do dick but my wife works at a decent job. If I don't report her income should I be getting any assistance? And yes, "household income" has it's fair share of fuck-the-poor problems as well. I would submit that the federal poverty level is about a third what it should be is a bigger problem. But you still have people out there, many in suits sitting in air conditioned offices with marble and gold bathrooms on K street, arguing that poor people can't have cell phones and refrigerators and still be poor. Alternatively, there are plenty of schlubbs out there throwing Natty Light beer cans at their mangy cats with their unwashed kids running around the trailer in their diapers only 3/4 full of waste yelling about the same shit. But I digress.
I've never seen data in one vs the other but yes, serial killers and the man that kills wife and family is usually white. Other than that, a lot of black neighborhoods are war zones. Apples and oranges.
|
|
|
|
Post by bobathon on Jul 7, 2020 14:25:28 GMT -5
How about this: there is very little value in having a police force. It should be absolutely minimized and the funds should be spent on restructuring society. The biggest driver of crime is poverty. Can we work in that, and cut back in the military, the cops, and tax cuts for rich fucks? Implement National Health Care (like any other civilized nation) and UBI (like a shining city on a hill)?
And can we devote a shit-ton of our wealth to making sure EVERY kid gets a good education, including some post High School? And they learn that the CSA fought explicitly to preserve slavery, and they were hypocritical AF about states' rights? And make sure they're all fed at school?
I don't think more Warrior Cops enforcing the peace on us civilians is really the way to go (and in fact, is counter productive for reporting those actual blank on blank crimes, in certain blank communities), I think we need to invest in America, not in an army to occupy it.
But I don't think we're mature enough for that shit. People bitch about oh I can't breathe with a paper mask on, can they really discuss institutional sea change? Too busy pwning the libs, haw haw, roll coal!
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave's Not Here Man on Jul 7, 2020 14:54:47 GMT -5
Works for me.
|
|
|
|
Post by minx on Jul 7, 2020 15:16:42 GMT -5
Can't think of the specific programs - I believe welfare is one, WIC is another and Medicaid is a third. If you're married, then you're screwed.
And I do think it accelerated the breakdown of the nuclear family. Government sent a message that having a second parent (usually dad) wasn't necessary because that parent would keep you from getting aid.
I forget the income limit for Medicaid (been a while since I did eligibility and billing), but the asset limit was $3000. In MD, that counted your car. Even back in the 90's most cars had a value of more than $2k, so if you had a car you couldn't have much else. And in order to work in a majority of the areas in this country, you need a car. Shit like that. Keeps poor people in their place, regardless of their skin color.
And regardless of your age, race, or income level, we do an horrendous job of making non-custodial parents pay child support. I know far too many people where dad (because our system is heavily biased towards mom being the best parent - I won't comment on that here) has pretty much abandoned his first family and started anew and doesn't pay support. And the states don't really do shit to help collect it.
|
|
