The witness says that Lyoya didn't grab the Taser

[Dave's Not Here Man]

www.fox2detroit.com/news/watch-patrick-lyoya-shot-to-death-by-grand-rapids-police-heres-what-the-video-showed

I'm guessing he also wasn't driving with stolen plates. Had a perfectly legal and valid Drivers License. Wasn't high as fuck. Didn't try to run from the police (pro tip- jeans around your knees area makes running away exponentially more difficult). Didn't resist/fight with the officer. And was a good boy.

Cop was professional, under control, and did not escalate the situation. Normally there is back-up nearby but with staffing shortages in most departments, it may have taken longer than normal. Once confronted with a fight, the officer attempted non-lethal force instead of going directly to his weapon. Keep in mind that not only did he have no back-up but there was also a second person in the car. The fact that he didn't immediately render aid is cockamamie reporting by someone pushing a narrative that is irrelevant to the story.

The only thing I can fault the officer for is not waiting for his back up to arrive. But we all know that in the grand scheme of things the outcome was based on Patrick's actions, not the cop's.

[bobathon]

The mentality that "a cop cannot ever let anyone flee" contributes. Seems a pointless death to me, but I don't care to watch a death video.

What happens if dude runs off? Besides someone being embarassed. Was there like a weapons cache in the car? Was dead dude on his way to murder someone? Is what I heard true, did the cop switch off his camera?

[Dave's Not Here Man]

I don't think allowing subjects you are attempting to detain to flee just because they want to is a very effective means of law enforcement. Speculation can work both ways about what that person will do if allowed to.

[bobathon]

Respect mah authority or die?

[Dave's Not Here Man]

You know me better than that home slice.

[bobathon]

One problem I have here is the comply or die thing ends up with a lot of deaths at the hands of people who (will be the first to tell you they) have no duty to protect.

[minx]

There are a couple of factors here, and I'm not sure how you overcome them.

1) No one seems to be disputing the the reason for pulling Mr. Lyola over was uncalled for (stolen plates). At this point in the encounter, two things happen:
a) Cop has to at least begin assuming that he's dealing with a criminal - this isn't a routine traffic stop, as ordinary folks aren't driving with stolen plates.
b) At the same time, Loyla (who does not realize the plates are stolen - there hasn't been any evidence that the car is his that I know of), is afraid - he's a Black man being pulled over for 'no reason'.
2) Cop tells Loyla to get out of the car. It does appear that he (the cop) has been doing everything textbook so far - kept his distance, informed Loyla the reason for pulling him over, told him to get out of the car.
a) I'd say that at this point, the cop is a little nervous, but has everything under control.
b) Loyla is probably very confused (the car is NOT stolen!) and very scared (cop is supposed to be asking for license and registration, not ordering him out of the car - something is wrong, wrong, wrong!)
3) By this point, I suspect Loyla is terrified, and nothing the cop says would do anything towards calming him down. Cop is also nervous and pulls out his taser to subdue him.
a) Neither man is acting in a manner that I would say is unreasonable for either one - Loyla is scared and trying to move towards the officer in an attempt to convince him this is a mistake.
b) From the cop's viewpoint, Loyla is not listening or following any instructions. On top of that, he keeps moving closer, despite being told to stand still. Time to take out the taser.

In my opinion, neither man has done anything wrong right now. Loyla is acting as you'd expect a man who is confused and scared would do, and the cop is totally following the training textbook - talk to calm down, then go for non-lethal force.

It appears Loyla reaches for the taser - I don't see in subsequent videos where he actually grabs it or has control over it - more like he lunges in an attempt to disarm the cop.
a) From Loyla's point of view reasonable action - the cop has pulled out what looks like a gun and pointed it at him. I too might instinctively try to charge and knock it out of his hand, as I'd be in a mode of thinking my life was on the line right now.
b) From the cop's point of view, he's now dealing with the possibility of a very dangerous criminal - he pulled this man over for stolen plates, the man has argued and mostly refused to cooperate, and is now attacking him to remove his weapon from his control. As Loyla tries to back away, the cop pulls out his service weapon and shoots.

Was Loyla responsible for his own death? No. I think it's easy for white people to say that he should have just stood still and complied, but most white people aren't shot at a traffic stop, so it's easy for us to say.
Black people for better or worse have an unconscious bias that every police encounter is going to end badly for them - at best harassment and embarrassment, at worse being jailed or shot for no clear reason.

Was the cop unreasonable? Again, no. It's easy to look at that video and say that this is another example of a black man's life being considered worthless. But the cop did follow the training as far as I can see. And nothing indicates he turned off the body cam - I do believe it was disconnected when Loyla went for the taser and the subsequent wrestling that took place. At the same time, the officer was dealing with the unconscious bias that Black men, especially ones dressed in baggy pants are dangerous thugs with no respect for authority.

So unconsciously, both men were dealing with biases that have been ingrained for decades if not more. How can that be 'trained' out of a person? How can a Black man look through history and see positive examples of white authorities protecting them, or being fair? And how can a cop overcome society's bias saying Black men are inherently more dangerous than whites?

Because I think that more than outright racism, that's what we're dealing with -the baked in unconscious bias that almost all cops are racist, but also the bias that Black men are stronger and more dangerous than whites.

As for the rendering aid - I'm not sure that I would expect someone who just shot another person (justified or not) to immediately be clear-headed enough to run and offer aid. So I'm giving the cop a pass here.
And in terms of actually shooting him, crime is increasing in cities across the country. If Loyla was a truly dangerous criminal and went on to kill someone later that day or the next day because the cop let him flee without trying to stop him, people would be up in arms. There are no winners here, just losers all around.

The question still remains - how do you reverse decades of trained racism? Because that's what's needed - from early childhood the narrative has to be reversed. Right now, I think we're going backwards on that front.

[bobathon]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with your 2a.

[minx]

In what way- you think he doesn't have things under control at all?

Let's take race completely out of things for a moment - you're a cop, and you've pulled over a car where the plates don't match the car they're attached to, so quite possibly looking at a stolen car.
Do you politely go up and ask for license and registration, or do you ask the person to get out of the car?

Remember, you know nothing about the person driving the car at this point, so you can't assume they're harmless.

[Dave's Not Here Man]

Officer did not order him to get out of the car. In fact he got out of his car before the cop did. Mistake #1 and the cop didn't freak out about it. If I remember the video (not watching it again) he either told him to "stay in the car" or "get back in the car".

I think the 2a was bob's idea of a one-liner.

[minx]

I confess to not having watched the full video, so thank you for that information.

And you're right, Bob was probably being a smart-ass since he thinks that no cop can do anything right.

[bobathon]

If the cop had control of the situation, why did it go South? Maybe he really didn't have the control he imagined he had?

Should cops expect every driver to be a mad killer? What then of the presumption of innocence? That whole scenario just feeds the nonsense thin-blue-line-protecting-civilization bullshit.

I think too often we have cops killing people. There's something wrong with our policing, and it isn't the "civilians". Cops are supposedly trained in encountering people, and somehow here we are. "Oh, everyone was confused." Well someone initiated the contact, someone is trained in it, they really shouldn't be confused. And if they are, how is a "civilian" supposed to respond? They can't call dispatch and say "I have this cop acting funny, send backup". Poor cop judgment = dead "civilian". Poor "civilian" judgment = dead "civilian".

PS If he lets this guy run off, and guy kills someone, the response is "no duty to protect the public". If they kill the guy, the response is "I was protecting the public".

[bobathon]

Apr 18, 2022 12:56:50 GMT -5 minx said:

I confess to not having watched the full video, so thank you for that information.

And you're right, Bob was probably being a smart-ass since he thinks that no cop can do anything right.

Have you ever *needed* a cop? Were you satisfied with the outcome? I have never needed a cop. Maybe I live a charmed life.

Maybe we shouldn't expect much from cops. Maybe we have too many, and maybe we accept people as cops who shouldn't be entrusted with life and death decisions.

[k9krap]

I have needed a cop. I had a good friend on Fredericksburg’s force. (I met him through his wife at the time, who was a bank teller with me). I was living in the city, near the college. Just below Trench Hill on Sunken Road. My sister dated this guy all through high school. He was not a good influence. When she broke up with him, he showed up at my parents’ one night with a shotgun, threats kill himself. When my sister needed a place to stay, I let her crash at my apartment. One night we were rudely awakened by her ex banging on the door, calling Jill’s name and crying. I called the non-emergency line and asked for my friend. Luckily he was on duty and called me right back. He drove up shortly after I explained the situation and parked with his spotlight on the ex at the door. What an amazing change! No more tears! He was cordial to the cop and allowed my friend to take him away to the city limits. Was I satisfied? Yes. I wanted no trouble for the guy - he had issues and my friend said he was very drunk. I wonder if he’s still alive sometimes. He’s the one that would take my sister to parties and they always seemed to leave right before they were raided.

Anyway, I don’t much care for the deputies here as I think it’s a good ole boy network. I have had no satisfying every dealing I’ve had with them and it’s been a lot since the animal shelter is under the sheriff’s control.

[minx]

I have actually needed a cop once or twice. Needed an ambulance more than once as well.

Every time, I have been treated with respect and courtesy. And I have been pulled over more than once too. Had an asshole cop once, but otherwise, again treated with respect and courtesy.

Which is how it should be for all. I shouldn't have to be okay with calling the cops simply because I'm a nice white middle-class woman. I am well-aware that I know people who don't have that advantage who would hesitate to call.

But again, much of this comes down to unconscious biases that have been taught to all of us from childhood. Like the ones that say you want to live in a good neighborhood. Define good. Many times it comes down to white people with some money. It's not a racist thing, but a bias - society has shown us years and years of nice white middle class folks in 'good neighborhoods'. As opposed to the 'gritty streets of the city' - mostly populated by poorer Blacks and minorities where the good white folks like Starsky and Hutch fought crime.

Bob, I highly suggest you read "The Sum of Us" by Heather McGee. It's very interesting and also very educational. I also recommend 'How the Word is Passed' by Clint Smith. Both writers focus on socially unconscious bias and the difficulty in reversing it. Neither are saying it can't be done, just that it's not overnight work, and will be painful and difficult.

[Dave's Not Here Man]

If my eyes rolled any looser they'd come out of the sockets. I can't even.

[Dave's Not Here Man]

.........on the other hand maybe we don't need cops after all. Let the market decide  www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/lori-vallow-idaho-mother-charged-killing-children-pleads-not-guilty-rcna24983 who lives and dies. I would certainly be available to offer my services to bring her and her shitbag husband to justice free of charge.

[minx]

That would free up the cops for the 'quality of life cases' - getting slow people out of the fast lane for instance.

OTOH, that crime should be left in the hands of the citizens as well. We'd take care of them folks pretty damn quick!

[bobathon]

I'm glad there were cops when you guys needed them. I won't say "defund the police", but I think we're overbalanced. Do we really need cops cruising around investigating every license plate? Do we really need to put e.g. animal control under the cops, just because they have budget? Do any of us really believe that without cops actively exerting their authorities, civilization would collapse into anarchy?
I don't buy it. I agree we need cops for specific circumstances, like active threats or documenting crimes and collisions. I don't think we need to flood the world with armed goobers who think they are all white knights and we are all probably terrorists. I think the warrior cop training is poison. So is our prison system.

[k9krap]

I’ll never forget the time I woke up to a cop standing in my bedroom doorway. Again, I was living near the college. I was married to my first husband by this point. We had had an attempted break-in a few weeks earlier (a drunk mistaking our duplex for his) and boy did it set off my husband’s paranoia (of which I was unaware). He was calling constantly. I followed the cop out of my bedroom and heard my husband telling him he was a diagnosed schizophrenic with paranoid tendencies. Uh, WTF? And why are you telling a first responder this? They will never respond again! We got married in August and the break-in occurred in September. It was a very short marriage (I sent him home to his mom in Rhode Island 6 months later and never saw him again.

[minx]

I do agree Bob - we are focused too much on punishment and not enough on prevention.
And that permeates all of our society, not just policing.

But it goes back to the us vs them mentality that society has (and has had in this country from day 1).

To many us-es don't want them to have any real advantages. And that mentality crosses all lines of race, income, education and politics.
Do something meaningful to help retrain people after the only company in town leaves so they don't slide into decline - I don't think so - they should be like me and plan better!
Create affordable housing - hell, I lived in rented rooms and survived. They need to work harder!
Affordable education? Why did those idiots take out loans they couldn't pay back? I paid for my own education by working hard!

While there's not a one-size-fits-all solution, it does start with realizing we're all in this together. I don't EVER see that happening.

[k9krap]

I watch a lot of police shows, most of them fiction (e.g., not true crime although I do watch some true crime. I love those shows of 911 calls!). Chicago PD is a fictional show but I deem it to be more truthful than show like Blue Bloods, etc. The main character is very corrupt but occasionally comes through with a good deed. I imagine most cops are this way in real life.  

But Chicago Fire has become my new favorite show although it’s been on for 8 or 9 years.  It’s so so campy it’s like a soap opera.  Everyone is fucking someone they shouldn’t, there are long, dramatic pauses at the end of every scene and of course, there’s the beefcake factor.  🤣🤣🤣

[minx]

I truly think TV has warped the public's view of what cops should be. Big, burly and totally in control in all situations. Plus all of them are athletic and crack shots.

Reality of course is that most of them are just like your next door neighbors. One is totally jacked and totally anal about everything - probably out there on the weekends trimming the stray blades of grass with scissors so the grass is all at the same perfect height. The other is sitting on the back porch with a brewski thinking he's king of the world. And the neighbor across the street is a 20year old kid who wants to change the world.

Now put them each in a police car and send them out on patrol and see what happens. Cause that's the reality - despite all of the 'training', cops are mostly like the rest of us, only they get hyped up as being in constant danger with their lives at risk. Imagine going into work each day and told to be careful, cause your family just wants you to come home at the end of the day, and you know what Target customers can be like. Every last shopper in that store would be dead before closing time at 10pm (from what my eldest daughter has said - she used to work there), cause those employees just want to get home in one piece.

[bobathon]

Toto, I don't think we're in Mayberry any more.