Hey Embryos!

[minx]

It's your lucky day!  Alabama said that you are people too!

Jesus Fucking Christ.  Can't say I'm shocked, as this exactly what the 'pro-life' people have been pushing for from the beginning - a ruling that life does indeed begin at conception.

And we can joke about letting the folks that created the embryos taking them as a tax break, but for people who are infertile and want to attempt IVF, this is beyond devastating.  IF your insurance covers the procedure, at most, you get two tries before the benefit expires.  And the shit a woman needs to go through to have any eggs retrieved is unbelievably difficult and painful.  

Friend and cousin had both their kids via IVF.  Both had between 5-9 eggs retrieved, out of which about 2/3 resulted in successful fertilizations.  Friend had three embryos on the first try- two were viable (meaning that doctors had a reasonable idea that they would implant and result in a successful pregnancy  - they implanted those two and the result was one baby.  Cousin had 5 viable embryos.  Three were implanted, resulting in one child.

Friend discarded the embryo that wasn't viable.  Second attempt they implanted 5 eggs and had twins.
Cousin used the two embryos left from attempt 1 and had a second baby.

Friend and her husband did look into donating the two leftover embryos, but in the end had them destroyed.  If today's ruling sticks and gets adopted by more states, they would have been charged with murder.

Next up - banning any type of hormonal birth control, along with charging women who have miscarriages with murder or attempted murder.

And yeah, lots of women and young adults vote for this shit.  Maybe we should have anyone who considers themselves 'pro-life' to indicate that on their driver's license or state ID in the same way you can say you're an organ donor.
Have that little indicator?  No birth control for you, and no abortion, regardless of the circumstance.  If it's between saving you and saving your unborn child, we're going for the child!  Cause unborn babies matter!

See how many women start changing their tune about un-born life being sacred then.  And yeah, if they struggle with fertility issues have doctors tell them that ethically, they can't really retrieve more than an egg or maybe two.  Cause if they do more and they all result in fertilizations, then they all get implanted and God will handle the rest.  Good luck Octomom!

[Dave's Not Here Man]

Life does begin at biologic conception/fertilization. How is that even up for debate when it's a biologic fact? My contention is "so what"? So many other things are involved in the natural process to carry that fertilized egg into viability to even become a pregnancy let alone to full term and birth.

The profound and central issue is not that fact, rather the government's role in the matter. In my opinion, this is one of the areas it doesn't belong from a legislative standpoint. Very simple. The government has NO ROLE in legislating matters of human reproduction, just like it should have NO ROLE in anyone's right to make decisions about their bodies. I think that, in so many words, needs to be a Constitutional Amendment. Remember, the Constitution and the BOR is not so much about your rights as it is about the government's ability to interfere/legislate them.

Once that has been codified, then we can move on to the next and first actual complexity, which is whether the medical practioner's part of this. The government can in fact legislate medical practice as a legal matter. For example, not one of us would argue that our medical providers be required to be certified, licensed, and required to carry insurance. Similarly, none of us would argue that there are certain procedures and treatments that should not be performed in an office vs a hospital. I can take this a lot further but hopefully you see the point. It's kind of like how most on the left believe in and support, despite the rhetoric from the right, your right to own guns but the government can legislate the conditions of that ownership (no, you may not own a MANPAD, RPG, or ICBM). EDIT- I'm not suggesting an equivalency, just similar comparisons to the proper function and exercise of government

So. It would be perfectly within the customary, reasonable and expected powers of our government to say that a certain medical procedure can only be performed under x, y, z conditions. Banning the procedure althogether is wherein lies teh rub when you put it in the same context of the last sentence of the last paragraph.

[minx]

Agreed. And the procedure needs to be weighed against similar procedures as well.

So a nurse practitioner can prescribe medications - that should include abortifacients. No need to be in a hospital for that.
And many outpatient surgeries and procedures - facelifts or colonoscopies can be safely performed outpatient as long as the patient meets certain health requirements - same for abortions.

I see your point about conception, but at the same time, the anti-abortionists have corrupted the term life, so I don't fully agree. A potential for life is created at conception, but a pile of 20 cells is not sentient.

[k9krap]

So, GOP complains that we aren’t having enough babies but they don’t want us to do it via IVF. Got it. 🤪🤪

[Dave's Not Here Man]

Absolutely.

Yes. Yes. And yes.

Bastardized is the word I use.

[Dave's Not Here Man]

Feb 21, 2024 17:37:52 GMT -5 k9krap said:

So, GOP complains that we aren’t having enough babies but they don’t want us to do it via IVF. Got it. 🤪🤪

No they would rather it happen the old fashioned ways- rape and incest.

[Dave's Not Here Man]

[minx]

The anti-abortion crowd wants unwed moms to give up their unwanted pregnancy babies for adoption.
Of course, those babies must be perfectly healthy so they can go to Good Christian Homes.

Baby has any medical issues, you are clearly responsible since you didn't keep your legs closed in the first place.

There was an article in the WaPo back when Texas first instituted their abortion ban (before Roe V Wade was completely overturned).
I think you couldn't abort after 12 weeks, but I'm probably wrong.
Anyway teenage girl (17) got pregnant by her boyfriend (18). She was all set to get an abortion, but of course the two of them didn't have a pot to piss in.
Girl's mom gets the great idea to go to the local pregnancy crisis center (not knowing it was an anti-abortion front). Center tells her that she's having twins, and that she's much further along than she thinks, so no abortion.
(By the girl's calculations she was about 10 weeks - had only missed one period).
Girl's mom is way excited - TWINS! At the same time, she's not going to allow her daughter or the boyfriend to live with them.
When the article was written, she had given birth - she and the boyfriend were living in his old bedroom. Minimal help from the crisis center - diapers and some clothes.

So fast forward - follow-up article.
They've gotten married and BF has joined the armed forces.
They are stationed in Florida and know no one there.
Girlfriend dropped out of HS to have the kids, and has no job prospects and is overwhelmed by the kids even though she loves them.
BF adores the kids also, but when he comes home from work, he just wants to play video games.
They argue all the time.
She's sad because she doesn't have a diploma, so job prospects are pretty much none. This means she's trapped in the marriage because she has no way to support herself. Wants to get her GED, but no access to child care.
He's sad because he doesn't really like being in the military and feels like he was forced to join because it was the only way he could earn enough to support the kids.

Overall, two miserable people, who actually had dreams and prospects before this happened. And two kids who may or may not have a sunny future (right now, looks like not). But hey, those babies were born, and that's all that matters!

[k9krap]

Ha ha ha! . What a fine mess they’ve made, huh?

[minx]

Three clinics in Alabama have shut down so far, and I suspect more will follow suit.

I do wonder how many 'pro-life' couples have done or tried IVF without a second thought that this would happen.
And I wonder how many 'pro-life' couples in other states don't bother thinking about the consequences of implanting multiple embryos at once. You are having quadruplets, and you may need to do a reduction because one is having an issue which may endanger the others? Guess what? That's an abortion, so you're screwed!

[Dave's Not Here Man]

A rather large number of people in this country completely ignore the bigger picture when it comes to how they vote. However, it's not like they weren't cautioned about the proverbial slippery slopes. You and I both know for a fact that a lot of these people, worst of all women, voted for the people that are now denying them the healthcare they need or the freedom to make their own decisions about it. But yeah, MAGA. $1000 right now says there's hundreds of MAGA women out there right now going through IVF or have the want/need to terminate their pregnancies and well, Trump 2024!!

I found it telling that one of Alabama's SC Justices has publicly announced support for Bible based laws and cited his religious beliefs wrt this court ruling. And yet over on the other side of the bible belt, Miyares calls the SCROTUS decision to not hear the case about vetting potential jurors for their strict conservative christian values in a case involving a lesbian, "Unconstitutional and Un-American".

All these people need remedial civics lessons before they are ever allowed to be in a position of public service, AND to vote.

[minx]

It's actually part of their plan - they are 'Christian Nationalists' and want to bring about the rapture. I am NOT being sarcastic about this at all.

If they can't bring about the rapture, they want to be safe in their own little enclave (the US) where the big bad world can't harm them and everyone has to conform to their ways.

Not a good thing, and far too many liberals and others are either not taking these people seriously, or just not paying any attention.

And just like the MAGA folks, they're going to be shocked that THEIR vote did matter, or that Trump MEANT what he's been preaching on the campaign trail.

I do get wanting to protest Biden's foreign policy on the war in Gaza. And I get all the concerns and worries about his age and cognitive abilities.
But at the same time, Trump and his cronies are the embodiment of pure evil, and they have just about every elected official dancing to their tune.

So Biden may not be ideal, but he's what we've got, and people need to recognize that and realize what's at stake.

[k9krap]

Welcome to the American Taliban.

[Dave's Not Here Man]

So _________ may not be ideal, but he's what we've got, and people need to recognize that and realize what's at stake.

FIFY because this has been said in 46 other presidential elections and in the vast majority of them only about half the people take heed.

[Dave's Not Here Man]

I deleted my post on facebook this morning because I don't think anyone really fucking reads my political stuff on there anyway, so brought it here since we're already on the topic.....

I'm sure by now you've read about how Suspect #1 has made his "demands" that IVF be "protected". Probably should paraphrase since the headlines seem to vary on the quotes. Anyway, he's now concerned about the ramifications of overturning Roe, you know, the landmark decision he brags about and takes full credit for ending.

Can't wait to hear the spin.

[minx]

Oh yeah, now all the hypocrites who were calling for the 'life at conception' laws are backing down and saying, well not IVF!!!

But if human life begins at conception, then it shouldn't matter how that life is conceived - inside or outside, it's still a human life, right?
Which means that if you damage a frozen embryo, then you've committed a crime.

And if you use a contraceptive that prevents a fertilized egg from being implanted like an IUD, then guess what murderer?

[k9krap]

Toss a used condom? That’s potential babies!

[Dave's Not Here Man]

Technically coffee is a bean but it ain't much without hot water. However casting ones seed upon the ground is frowned upon in Catholic marriage counseling and in line at the Taco Bell, coincidentally.

[minx]

Florida just decided that maybe that life at conception bill they're pushing may not be the be-all-and-end-all. Gotta make sure those IVF babies can be discarded after all!

I think my deceased BIL put it best - you can't go halfway on this stuff. If you believe that every unborn life is a living human and must be protected, then there should be no abortion whatsoever, unless the baby is no longer alive - none of this rape and incest crap - a baby is a baby! Why would you murder an innocent child simply on the basis of how it was conceived? If I raped my niece, then it was God's will that she became pregnant - punish me, but not that innocent baby!
Same applies to the embryos. If human life is indeed formed at conception, then any effort to harm an embryo is murder, regardless of whether it's implanted or not, right?


Besides, we all know that every sperm is sacred!

[minx]

Just read an article about Louisiana.


If you have IVF performed there, you have to pay to have any unused embryos (regardless of condition) shipped out of state to be stored at your own expense.

Doesn't matter if the embryos are viable or not - gotta do it. Cause Louisiana doesn't want that 'blood' on their hands. Oh, and this law has been in place for quite a while. It was a comprimise between the 'pro-life' people and the women's rights people. Women's rights wanted to allow IVF. "Pro-life" said it would kill babies.

Now here's the question. I do IVF. Doctor says that they feel I have two viable embryos and they are implanted (which means they were inserted into my uterus, not that they have actually attached to it and continued on their way). The pregnancy doesn't take. Have I just tortured two innocent babies?

Debate...

[Dave's Not Here Man]

mississippitoday.org/2024/03/07/mississippi-in-vitro-fertilization-legislature-andy-gipson-abortion/

and if you had any doubts remaining about just how far back the right wing wants to go-

www.huffpost.com/entry/north-carolina-gop-mark-robinson-women-vote_n_65e7d899e4b0f9d26cacc002

Requests for comment from Robinson’s campaign and from his government office were not returned.

[minx]

There was a letter to the editor in today's FLS saying that the Alabama court ruling wasn't evil and wouldn't affect IVF.
This couple just wanted their loss acknowledged. And people could still have the procedure - it wasn't banned.

And need I say it was a man who wrote it?

What loss did this couple endure? According to them, they lost their BABIES when those embryos were accidentally destroyed. And the court agreed with them.

And the ruling is having a chilling effect on IVF clinics in the state and justifiably so. Because THEY will be the ones charged with a crime if the legislature chooses to enact a ban saying that life begins at conception. And THEY are the ones who have been left wide open for any lawsuit where a couple claim that their embryo was mishandled, regardless of it's viability.

So yeah, 100% affecting IVF. And even if the Alabama legislature passes a law saying IVF is exempt from the court ruling, it's not going to follow that people can't make bank on civil suits. If I operated an IVF clinic in Alabama, I'd be shutting it totally down.

I do feel sorry for the couples who won't be able to conceive using IVF, but at the same time, if they don't like this ruling, they need to be at the ballot box voting for folks who value reproductive rights for all women.